Unelected Tribunals of NAFTA to Override U.S. Gov't...

This was basically what I heard on a Ron Paul radio advertisement. His claim appears that NAFTA's unelected tribunals can override the U.S. gov't. and form the North American Union.

I honestly don't know if my statement is accurate on what RP said or not. If so, is this a major threat to America? If not, where am I miscontruing the assertion?

What kind of legalities does a union of any kind have over the sovereignty of our own nation? This appears to be a muddy mess to me, but then again...
 
It was one of the enumerated complaints in the Declaration of Independence that foreign laws and powers were allowed to rule.
 
IMHO NAFTA was the only good from the Klinton times! i can now buy plums etc all year at reasonably affordable prices! I don't think american companies going overseas is a government matter as we have FREE ENTERPRISE but man I am glad I can get produce all year no matter the harvest season in the USA!
Brent
 
Free trade is indeed a "good thang". Problem is NAFTA is not free trade, NAFTA is managed trade. The treaty is a magnificent means by which preferred countries gain preferential access to US markets in accord with US foreign policy objectives. Likewise, US corporations will be given preferential access to member's markets. NAFTA is empire building using a velvet glove.

One of the unexplored provisions is the existence of tribunal which resolve disputes amongst agreements. And yes, as long as the US remains a member of the agreement the tribunal decisions do infringe upon our sovereignty. One public example is the recent initiative by the Bush administration to permit Mexican truckers to have free roam inside the US. The provision was part of the NAFTA agreement and has been in litigation in the US for something like nine years. The tribunal made its decision and the US political and judicial system kicked and screamed and ultimately had to bow to the decision of a NAFTA tribunal.

NAFTA is just loaded with stinkers and only over time will we discover them. I fully expect to discover at some point in the future the trans Tejas corridor is being driven by some kind of executive actions justified by NAFTA.

Get use to it because it will only get worse.
 
Free Trade

Among equal trade parteners is good. In no way can Mexico be considered equal to the USA and Canada. And that goes for the CAFTA too. Centeral America and Caribian countries do not have equal standards compared to USA and Canada.
I'm not in favor of lowering ours to meet theirs.
 
And yes, as long as the US remains a member of the agreement the tribunal decisions do infringe upon our sovereignty.

Maybe it's time to give the tribunal the "Hawaiian peace sign" and pull out of the "free trade" agreement...
 
la

I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the United States . No foreign entity of any type or form! I Owe them NOTHING!

They Owe ME!! There are not many countries out there that the United States has not giving money to! Some Way Some Fashion!
 
Tuttle8 said:
His claim appears that NAFTA's unelected tribunals can override the U.S. gov't. and form the North American Union.

There is no way a NAFTA tribunal has authority to form a multi-nation union against the wishes of the U.S. government. I've heard Ron Paul speak and while he has some justifiable concerns about any NAU, I've never seen him claim anything remotely similar to this. Are you sure you understood him correctly?

Waitone said:
One of the unexplored provisions is the existence of tribunal which resolve disputes amongst agreements. And yes, as long as the US remains a member of the agreement the tribunal decisions do infringe upon our sovereignty.

Are you referring to Chapter 11 Tribunals? If so, you might check out this thread discussing that issue: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214221

The provision was part of the NAFTA agreement and has been in litigation in the US for something like nine years. The tribunal made its decision and the US political and judicial system kicked and screamed and ultimately had to bow to the decision of a NAFTA tribunal.

Hmmm, I did some googling and searching on Westlaw and couldn't find any case like the one you described. What was the name of the case?
 
Are you sure you understood him correctly?

No, I'm not. The commercial came up and I was only half listening at the moment until he started talking about the NAFTA unelected tribunals. I could only comprehend bits and pieces of his radio ad due to the need to pay attention to the road at the time.

I'm waiting for them to play the ad again. I know they will. Just working too much OT and want silence in the car by the time I go home.
 
I just got done with a 400 level course on International Relations and politics.

NAFTA DOES violate international sovereignty. It simply does.

I don't recall specifics, but in California there was a certain agent in drinking water, I believe, that came from an agent added to gasoline. It was an Canadian company. Anyway, it got into the water of a trailer park, and started giving people (kids especially) all sorts of nasty illnesses and cancer.

The California gov't banned its use immediately, and the Canadian government sued the state under NAFTA rules. A secret council meets, in which it is illegal to record what is said, to rule on it.

Also, google "IRONCLAD". They bought a toxic dump in Mexico that was making people sick. Beforehand, the people had shut it down and cancer rates went down. Ironclad, an American company, sued under NAFTA to reopen the plant. Even though the mexican residents of the village didn't want the company in their town, under NAFTA metalclad can do what they please.

Folks, once you really start to understand the implications of NAFTA, you see its just a cluster ****. Excuse the censored language, but there isn't any other word for it.
 
NAFTA DOES violate international sovereignty. It simply does.

How does it violate international sovereignty then? All international treaties by definition involve one nation and another nation ceding authority to each other in certain areas. This isn't the same thing as violating international sovereignty. Please provide me with an example of where NAFTA has caused the United States government to do something it did not agree to do.

I don't recall specifics, but in California there was a certain agent in drinking water, I believe, that came from an agent added to gasoline. It was an Canadian company. Anyway, it got into the water of a trailer park, and started giving people (kids especially) all sorts of nasty illnesses and cancer.

The Candian company was Methanex and the agent was MTBE. California law required companies to add MTBE to gasoline in order to address smog concerns. At the time, California did not realize how easily MTBE could escape and contaminate ground water supplies. When it discovered this, it banned the additive.

The California gov't banned its use immediately, and the Canadian government sued the state under NAFTA rules. A secret council meets, in which it is illegal to record what is said, to rule on it.

Methanex sued under Chapter 11 of NAFTA. This is a provision similar to eminent domain rules here in the United States. It says that if a country passes legislation that takes something from foreign investors, they will pay those investors the value of what was taken. It also provides for a NAFTA tribunal to resolve these disputes. In this case, there was no "secret council." Both sides had lawyers and submitted the case to arbitration under Chapter 11. The NAFTA tribunal dismissed Methanex's claims and ordered them to pay $4 million in legal fees to California..

Also, google "IRONCLAD". They bought a toxic dump in Mexico that was making people sick. Beforehand, the people had shut it down and cancer rates went down. Ironclad, an American company, sued under NAFTA to reopen the plant. Even though the mexican residents of the village didn't want the company in their town, under NAFTA metalclad can do what they please.

The case is Metalclad, not Ironclad. The dump had never been shut down at all, Mexican authorities allowed Metalclad to purchase the dump on the condition that they clean it up in 1993. Metalclad purchased the dump as a result. Local officials objected to this decision by the national government. In 1994, the Governor did a study and found everything OK and approved the continued operations of the dump. In 1995 the Baja California authority also approved the site; but the local authorities denied a building permit.

Metalclad sued for its damages (what it had paid to buy the dump) since the denial of the building permit stopped them from using it. They won a judgment before the NAFTA Tribunal of $43 million (later reduced to $15.6 million) for the taking. Because the arbitration had taken place in Vancouver, Mexico then sued to overturn the judgment in British Columbia alleging that the arbitration did not meet requirements under Canadian law. Metalclad still got paid; but the local court ruled that NAFTA had exceeded its jurisdiction and the Metalclad decision now represents the concept that local courts may overrule NAFTA (Not exactly a great case to support your argument that NAFTA tribunals violate sovereignty).

I'd also note that at no point did a NAFTA Tribunal force the village to provide a building permit or even try to order such a result. All they did was say if the village wanted to deny a permit that would allow Metalclad to operate the dump after it had complied with Mexican law, they would have to pay Metalclad for the damages.

I just got done with a 400 level course on International Relations and politics.

If your post is representative of what you were taught, I would ask for my money back.
 
Are you referring to Chapter 11 Tribunals? If so, you might check out this thread discussing that issue: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=214221

I think this is what he was regarding. I caught his commercial on the radio again the other day and his context is "opening up the borders to an economic superhighway and America is right in the middle of it". I can see RP's viewpoint on this. However, I can't agree nor disagree with his assertion until I know the full story on the whole "NAFTA unelected tribunals" thing is.
 
ALL treaties with foreign nations "violate" our sovereignty.

That's why we call them treaties. That's why the President can enter them, but the Senate must ratify them.

Calling any treaty an imposition on sovereignty is like shooting fish in a barrel, and it's a cheap political trick.

Love NAFTA or hate it, it's still an international treaty. It's designed to compel certain behavior on the part of our nation in exchange for certain behavior on the part of another.
 
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