Unburned powder?

jonnefudge

New member
Hello guys,
I have been trying out a light load to my marlin 1895. It's a 45-70, lee 340gr cast, 36gr norma 200, CCI 200lr. I have shot about 15 rounds and it's worked great. However, I have noticed that the barrel has been full of some wierd looking residue. I've attached pics of the residue and some powder for comparision. What could it be? Is it unburned powder or what?

/Jonnefudge
 

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I own several 45-70 rifles and shoot a number of loads out of each of them. Some of my most accurate loads are with 5744 powder which burns very dirty. It leaves the same type of residue in the barrel as you're showing here. In spite of the fact that it doesn't burn cleanly, it still shoots amazingly well. After the first shot the succeeding shots don't contribute more powder residue, they seem to blow some out and leave about the same amount. It's never hurt anything and I know many shooters who report the same thing with this powder and several others. I wouldn't worry about it at all as long as it's shooting to your satisfaction.
Note: I have several other equally accurate loads with different powders that don't leave residue like this. I just happen to be sitting on a large quantity of 5744 and it is a great low pressure cast bullet powder.
 
Looks like unburned stick powder. I am unfamiliar w/ Norma powders.

Hint: Some powders require full loads to work well, as otherwise, not all of it burns due to insufficient pressures.
 
Jonnefudge,

Yes, the whiter grains are mostly-unburned grains that the graphite coating has burned off of before they extinguished. When you are operating at a pressure too low for the powder to burn efficiently (the slower the powder, the higher the pressure needed for clean, efficient burn), there is a phenomenon in which the bullet gets going down the barrel too fast for the powder to make gas quickly enough to keep up with the rate of the resulting volume expansion. This is especially easy to have happen using a straight wall cartridge because the bullet doesn't have to move very far to double the volume the powder is burning in. The rate of expansion of that volume is high in such a chambering, and the total expansion ratio is high, too. As a result, the pressure drops and powder material that has changed phase to vapor, which happens just before it burns, instead then re-condenses, dropping pressure and temperature further so that it extinguishes. This is described in the current Norma manual.

The extinguishing happens to some small extent with most powders when they exit the muzzle and pressure drops while they are still inside the oxygen starved muzzle blast sphere (the surface of which has the fireball, but nothing is burning under that surface flame). It was pointed out to me by board member Hummer70, who worked as a test director at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, that you can sweep up the dust in front of the firing point at any indoor range and touch a match to it and it will flare up and burn as smokeless powder does.

The problem with letting this extinguishing go so far as to leave those pale grains all over your bore is that such a large degree of non-combustion can be associated with some weird pressure spike phenomena. It is not entirely understood, but you can get localized pressure to drop, then have ignition return as a wave of gas travels from the breech forward and that creates very high local pressure near the bullet base position. The result is like short seating in a muzzle loader where the ball is way out in front of the powder charge which burns and launches its own mass forward against the ball, bulging the barrel at impact with it. In this sense, it's like shooting into an obstruction. With smokeless powder involved, barrel ringing and, worst case, blowing off, as Texas gunsmith Charlie Sisk has been able to demonstrate on demand with .338's, are all possible.

Below is a strain gauge reading of a commercial load with a lot of underburning powder. The pressure jump at the end is actually a traveling wave that came back from the site of the pressure jump to the breech, where the gauges were located. Standard copper crushers and commercial test barrel pressure transducers don't see this wave because they move with the steel. They would need to be located forward in the barrel where the spike actually occurs to see it. But strain gauges measure the stretch of the steel, so they see it just fine.

Reproduced with permission from Jim Ristow at RSI:
RSIimageof55grWinball_zps0a0d7c84.gif


So, If you want to continue to experiment with underloading a powder too slow for the peak pressures you want to fire it at, I would consider investing in the pressure equipment to be sure to avoid damaging the gun. If you are on a budget, however, you should move to a faster powder. The unburned grains are wasted powder, meaning you now are using a higher charge weight and eating through your powder budget faster than you need to anyway. A faster powder will achieve the same velocity with a smaller quantity that peaks at a little bit higher pressure.

As an example, if your COL is 2.550", then QuickLOAD thinks your Norma 200 load is running at around 12,000 psi peak, dropping and 2800 psi at the muzzle and getting about 1400 fps. If you switched to 16.5 grains of Unique, your peak pressure would go up to 23,700 psi and your muzzle pressure would fall to 1500 psi, with resulting identical muzzle velocity, but you would be getting 424 shots per pound instead of just 194 shots per pound as you are from the Norma 200. The powder will burn much more completely and fouling residue will thereby be reduced. It won't be zero, but it will be less.
 
If I believe QuickLoad for that bullet/powder/amount/18" barrel...
You're getting barely 45% burn and less than 800fps.

Go with something like 10-11g/UNIQUE if you want plinkers
 
OP, you are using start data for a 500 gr. jacketed bullet with pressures kept to SAAMI max. That is a very light charge for a 340 gr. cast especially when you consider that it is 8 gr. less than starting for a 350 gr jacketed.
 
I was assuming a longer barrel than the Guide Gun version, but still very poor burn efficiency. That powder just isn't made for this kind of downloading. In another thread the OP mentions a hang-fire, so there is an real ignition issue, too. A magnum primer might fix that, but the net result will still be poor and a waste of powder.
 
Thanks for the answers! Great knowledge!

Ok I guess the load sucks... Any tips on a light load for practise would be great, I want it too be a light recoil (its actually for my wife). The problem is that here in Sweden we do not have all the powder types/brands that are avalible in the U.S. I can get vithavouri, norma, lovex (d060??), Hodgdon (harder to get).

Just to be clear: is the load possibly dangerous with that 2800psi at the muzzle? Or is it just wasteful?


The rifle is a Marlin 1895 sbl.
 
Any time you get a hang-fire you are a small step away from a secondary explosive detonation. When that happens it can be very dangerous due to the high pressures involved.
Can you contact the powder makers and ask about reduced loads with their powders?
 
That's a good suggestion. Below is an image I got from Jack Belk of what's left of a gun trying to shoot 10 grains of a slow powder in a large capacity case.

2017-03-18_12-50-47_zps3ighf3b6.jpg


If you are not concerned to make a certain velocity, see if you can get some Vihtavuori N32C (Tin Star) cowboy action powder. About 17 grains should give your bullet the velocity of a .22 Long Rifle, give or take and depending on the exact length of your barrel (I assumed the 22" standard 1895 barrel).

The muzzle pressures I gave you are not particularly high. Over 10,000 psi occurs with some full power cartridges. The reason I mention the muzzle pressures was so you could see why a load with higher peak pressure (the Unique load) would not necessarily produce higher velocity. It's because the peak occurs in the first couple of inches of bullet travel down the barrel, then the acceleration afterward depends on remaining pressure in the barrel. So even though the peak was higher for unique, the average pressure (integrated over the whole barrel, and not just a simple average for peak and muzzle) for the two loads was the same and so the velocity was the same. Average pressure in a bore actually determines how much kinetic energy the bullet picks up (how much work was done getting it up to speed it), and not the final velocity. But when the velocities are the same, then so is the energy and therefore the average pressures.
 
If restricted to the likes of Vihtavhouri:
Code:
[B]Type	        Wt (gr)    fill (%)    vel (fps) Pmax (psi)	Burn (%)[/B]
VV N340	         10.0        28	       1,100        10,036	  100
VV N32C Tin Star 12.0	     45	       1,025        15,027	  100
Do NOT use these loads w/o cross-checking w/ Vihtavhouri or others who have used.
If at all possible, get some Alliant UNIQUE for such plinkers.
 
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Hodgdon Trailboss is supposed to be good for reduced loads too. I've got a pound (actually 8oz. It's BULKY) but have never actually tried it.
 
Given your restrictions.. look at MRP-2 powder.

Yes you will use more.. but you will get less velocity and pressure with safe loads.
 
Trail Boss, 12.5gr, works very well under a 405 cast, for a light practice load.
Considering where you are, I would look into Tin Star.
 
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