Unburned HP-38

D

DMY

New member
I bought my first container of W231 in the 1980s. I didn't like it as much as Bullseye, which I found to shoot much cleaner (i.e.: less soot). Started using the rest of the 25 year-old can recently and really liked the results. The recoil was almost squib-like in my .45 ACP 1911 and 5" revolver and it was pretty accurate. Found and bought a 1# container of HP-38 last week and loaded up several different projectiles, all 200 grs, all .452" dia, some plated, some coated, some swagged lead. All were loaded in brand new Starline cases, Federal LPP with 4.76 grs of HP-38.

Liked the accuracy and light recoil, HOWEVER, I noticed that the cases shot out of my revolver had, what I consider to be, a lot of unburned powder. My guess, without weighing it, is approximately 5% unburned powder in the case and approximately 4 - 8 flakes in each chamber. I presume my 1911 was similar, but it is hard to tell because the unburned powder was presumably knocked out of the spent case when it hit the concrete floor.

I also presume a higher charge would not solve the problem and may be worse. Is a magnum primer the solution?
 
You don't mention the actual loads that you are using, but I'll place a bet that you are at the low end on the reloading data for your particular cartridges.

I always get unburned 231 when playing at the low end of the spectrum, just bump up the loads till they burn more completely, as long as you stay within the load book limits.
 
correct

You are correct that I was on the low end of the load range. My OP did mention that I was using 4.76 grs of HP-38. Thanks for the response.
 
My apologies, I responded before carefully reading your post.

I find that revolvers tend to leave unburnt powder when an autoloader would not. The cylinder/ forcing cone gap tends to bleed off pressure.

still the solution is the same as before- bump up the powder charge a bit and it should burn cleaner.
 
Hello, DMY. W-231 is my favorite powder for .45 revolvers and autos. I found that it did not burn cleanly until I approached maximum loads. Now that I load it at book maximum, the powder leaves no yellow flakes, and only a reasonably tiny amount of black residue.
 
It is generally true of all powders that there is a pressure threshold above which they burn more cleanly and completely. In general, the slower the powder, the higher that minimum clean burning pressure is. It is one reason powders are more erratic in ignition and have higher velocity SD's when not loaded toward their higher numbers.

You can also improve the burn by raising start pressure. You can try a magnum primer, but in a short case like the 45 Auto it can have the opposite effect by unseating the bullet before the powder gets going. A better bet for the revolver is to buy a Redding Profile Crimp die for 45 Auto Rim. It has a roll crimp that will bite into a lead bullet. This tends to provide better results in the revolver by holding onto the bullet long enough to let the powder burn get underway a bit better.
 
Nicks idea of a better crimp is valid. A light recoil seems to indicate that your charges are being choked down by low pressure, and not burning properly, and you should realize that a heck of a lot of powder is being blown out, too. You are in danger of a squib load, if you're getting really bad performance.
Maybe you need to look at your expander, see if that is oversized, causing your bullets to creep. In your revolver, you are maybe letting your rounds pop out. you may have an unbalanced scale, or your measure threw inaccurate charges.

Regardless of the reason, you are risking a squib and blowout, and your charge being far underpressure is the likely cause. myself, i'd pull the things and start over after verifying all of the infomration is correct. then I'd boost that charge up closer to the max. Don't go over max, those are very fast powders and very unforgiving of overcharges.
 
But 5.0 to 5.2 grains (HP-38) seems to be the sweet spot with 200 grainers in my firearms in 45 ACP.
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In mine too. 5.0 under a 200 LSWC is my all-time pet load. i.e. it is the oldest recurring recipe that I use - for any chambering. Vintage 1985.

Getting to the subject of the thread . . .

Many years ago, I too purchased W231 (same as HP-38) to replace Bullseye. I wasn't pleased with Bullseye's "residuey" burn (Bullseye leaves a lot of fine residue - even when loaded up to higher pressures). The W231 ran much cleaner in my application. And that is the key.

It doesn't seem to be well known, but W231/HP-38 has some "slowness" to it compared to some of its fast burning contemporaries. It definitely burns slower than Bullseye.

Recently, I did load works on super light loads for my Colt 'Series 80' 1911. I bought it in '84 and have easily put 15,000 rounds through it (probably 20k+). I have other 1911's now, and so I decided place it in a state of "semi-retirement" by only shooting super light loads through it (12 lb recoil spring).

In the course of doing these load "work downs," it became clearly obvious that HP-38 was not the propellant of choice. From experience, I had a low expectation, and it was met. HP-38 will get sooty, with incomplete spent powder flakes left behind. Bullseye fared much better when being de-tuned. But it still got sooty in this application. I ended up with Nitro 100 and V V N310 as my choices, but that's for another post.

To sum it up: with very light loadings, W231/HP-38 is not a substitute for Bullseye. But if you load it up right, it will run much cleaner than Bullseye.
 
Much of the "residue" from Bullseye is just the graphite coating. Because it is a flat flake, the surface area is very high relative to the solid propellant, so the graphite is a correspondingly high quantity, as compared to any other grain form. At the end of a day shooting Bullseye, my hands are black with graphite and its distinct silver gray is seen on the grip frame where small quantities have blown out from under the grip panels.

A couple of times I've shot my "school gun" (the 1911 I took to my Gunsite classes originally) for a sustained run over a week at about 750 rounds a day. I didn't clean until it stopped function properly. On the first occasion the load was 4.8 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain H&G 68's. The gun ran about 2300 rounds before it finally stopped going fully into battery every time, and all the caked up crud had to be cleaned out. The second time I was running Hodgdon Universal at about 5.2 grains, and it ran almost 3500 rounds before I notice the first full battery failure. But Universal is slower, so it will leave some unburned flakes if the pressure is too low.
 
Thanks for the good advice.

Once again, thanks all for the good advice. Like Nick_C_S, my Series 70 Gold Cup is a sentimental favorite and I am trying not to beat it up.

I do use a separate Redding Profile Crimp for both .45 acp and auto rim and do not believe that my projectiles are prone to moving forward until ignition. Since I primarily shoot plated and coated projectiles, I try to use a minimal crimp, which if I measure correctly, is .471" at the mouth, compared to .465" at the middle and at the base.

I do not believe the charge is inconsistently light because I use a RCBS Lil' Dandy powder measure with fixed-volume rotors. I tap the measure several times to lightly compress the powder and throw 10+ drops back into the container to minimize any cross-contamination with the prior powder. Before dropping powder into the cases, I use a digital scale to weigh a single charge, then 10 charges, then another single charge and finally another 10-charge drop to verify the amount of powder which I am dropping on that particular day. The weight seems to vary by +/- 0.01 grains on any given day which I chalk up to possible changes in humidity or temperature, but otherwise, the charges are pretty consistent.

My recollection of using my first container of W231 was that it had more soot than Bullseye and that is why I didn't finish my first container until almost 30 years later. I always have a few flakes of unburned Bullseye, W231, or whatever, which doesn't bother me. However, this latest experience was a lot more than I expected. I will try bumping up the HP-38 towards 5.0 grs or so, but it may take away my motivation for using it because it is quite enjoyable shooting a .45 which has the same recoil as my .22.

My experience with dark gray or black hands is the same as Unclenick's. I thought sooty hands were a sign that I collect my cases?

Thanks again everyone.
 
Nick, I agree with the graphite comment. I have had a number of loads that appeared to combust very thoroughly, yet still left soot that I generally blamed on graphite and some unburned carbon in the formula.

All things considered, the best a person can do is get an efficient load of appropriate powder, and I've never felt good about the high speed numbers. I seem to always choose low speed powders that make for heavier charges, but again, not necessarily clean...
 
.45 ACP 1911
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While you may be shooting from both a pistol and revolver, it would appear that we are talking about the 45 Auto (ACP).

My standard load for Win-231 powder is 5.6 grains for a 230 grain fmj bullet. It would appear you are using too little powder and therefore getting soothing.

You might try using 5.2 grains of H-38 and see if your results improve.

Good luck and stay safe.
Jim
 
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