Un-burnt powder? 357 SIG

Dave P

New member
I loaded up 10 grains of AA #7, behind a 124 bullet. Used Lee factory crimp die (I love it).

Shoots fine, as long as the cartridge chambers all the way. SIG P226 pistol, BTW.

But, most rounds leave powder residue IN THE CHAMBER, which causes the next round to jam. (sand colored granules).

How the heck is this residue getting left behind in the chamber?? Blowing out the front would be expected, but to get "sucked" back into the chamber as the case is extracted??

Whats this world coming to?:confused::confused:
 
Sand, or "golden" color powder granule residue indicates incomplete combustion. It is not exactly unburnt powder, it is under burnt powder. The outside coating (with the graphite giving the powder its gray/black color) has been burnt off, but the rest of the powder granule did not ignite, leaving it a yellowish color.

Those granules are in your chamber, not because they were sucked back from the barrel, but because they merely stayed about where they were when the case was extracted.

Think of the old trick with the tablecloth. The gun is the table, the case is the tablecloth and the powder residue is the dishes. Yank the case out fast enough and the "dishes" stay right where they were, on the table (in your chamber)_

Incomplete combustion usually doesn't happen in small cases with medium burn rate powders, But in this case, obviously, it did. I cannot tell you exactly why, I only have a couple of guesses that MIGHT or might not be accurate.

First one, obviously, is defective primers. (or insufficient primers). Enough flash to ignite some but not all of the powder.

Second guess is lack of pressure. Most modern powders are "progressive" meaning they are engineered to provide a constant burn rate as they burn and the pressure increases. Some of them will not burn completely without a high enough "backpressure" on the powder charge as it burns.

In either of these cases, then CAN be enough pressure to push the bullet out of the barrel and still have incomplete ignition of the entire powder charge.

Really strange to see golden sand in a .357 Sig with AA#7 and a charge that is right in the middle of the range listed in my books.

I did experience this incomplete ignition once in a rifle. I got a couple pounds of really slow magnum rifle powder in a trade deal, and didn't have any of the big belted mags to use it in. Eventually I found a load listing it in the .45-70, and I loaded up 3 rounds to test with. Marlin 1895 lever gun. First shot, (it wasn't a heavy load,) and when I ejected the case, I saw the case come out trailing a "golden shower" of grit. The bullet had gone downrange, but I swear it seemed like half the powder charge was golden sand that dumped out of the case on its way out of the rifle and afterwards. I did fire the other two rounds, and the results were the same. And after those three shots the actions went "crunch" when you worked the lever. Complete tear down and detail cleaning took care of that, and I never tried that powder again. I'd have to go look at it to see the exact name it was 8700 or something like that. Still on the shelf in my storage closet, if someone wants to make me an offer....? :rolleyes:

you've used those primers and that powder before in other loads and all was good, yes??

You're sure nothing contaminated the primers or the powder? yes?

This one is a head scratcher to me.
Something here isn't right. Bad primer, bad power, bad load, seems like its got to be one (or all) of those, but I don't see how that could be.

POSSIBLE solutions MIGHT BE change primers, change the powder lot, or change the load density. What ever you do, use caution. This is absolutely an off normal situation, what should be a normal combination is not giving normal results.

You're off the map here, mate, and there are dragons out there. some you can see, and others you can't until they eat you. Tread carefully...
Good Luck.
 
44AMP is right. It's incomplete combustion. AA#7 is kind of lackadaisical and doesn't ignite as easily as many others.

Assuming there's published data to support it (don't have in front of me), you might want to consider increasing the charge weight. AA#7 is slower than many think. It's in the neighborhood of Blue Dot or 800X in terms of burn rate.

Moving to 147gn bullets is also a possible solution (charge weight adjusted, of course).

I have and use AA#7. But not for a lot of things. Full throttle 230g 45ACP, and full throttle 180gn 10mm Auto mostly. Point is, my experience with it is mainly with heavy bullets. I like heavy bullets.
 
I tried AA #7 in 9mm. I got full clean burns from start to max. however in my 4in barrel, I got no velocity increase near the top end. It was burning too slow to get used up in my barrel. velocities were reasonably good but it used a lot more powder to get the same results as others.
 
I tried AA #7 in 9mm. I got full clean burns from start to max. however in my 4in barrel, I got no velocity increase near the top end. It was burning too slow to get used up in my barrel. velocities were reasonably good but it used a lot more powder to get the same results as others.

What bullet weight were you using? Thanks.
 
What bullet weight were you using? Thanks.
I tried 115, I need to test again with 124 listed max was 8.6g, lee manual if I remember right

7.6 at 1075
7.8 at 1128
8.0 at 1176
8.2 at 1174
8.4 at 1143
I did test at 8.6, however I got chrono errors. but based on 8.2 and 8.4 I am pretty sure I just wasted the powder. these were smaller sample sizes of 3 rnds while doing pressure testing. I don't have any 115g at the moment, but I will load up some 124s with #7 and do a bit more testing next outing. probably the day after thanksgiving, weather permitting.
 
DaveP,

As already described, you have a low-pressure situation, and since you say only some of the rounds made the mess, you have irregular ignition, which is a common symptom of inadequate start pressure.

You may have noticed, or heard from other shooters, that light target loads of Bullseye or Red Dot (or other not-so-clean-burning powders) frequently leave brass sooty and discolored. That occurs when pressure is so low the case fails to expand enough to obturate the chamber. Thus, gas not only chases the bullet but escapes backward between the chamber and the brass, producing the oxide discoloration and depositing soot. If this happens while there is incompletely ignited powder still at the front of the powder column, the backward flowing gas will blow unburned granules into the space between the case and chamber as well as down the barrel.

In my misspent youth, I tried downloading Winchester 296 in 357 Magnum, even though you aren't supposed to, and the above is what happened. Granules of unburned powder spread all over the chamber walls. It impeded extraction because the granules were wedged snuggly into that gap by the breech-ward gas flow.

The deflagration of powder is actually a series of events, albeit quick ones. The grains forward in your case and just under the bullet are not exposed directly to the hot metal sparks the primer expels through the flash hole. For them, ignition results from hot gas and flame front flowing forward between all the other grains. That forward flow is impeded by the fluid resistance of those grains. It is analogous to pushing air through one of those little aquarium air pump filter stones. The grains at the front experience increasing heat and pressure until the surface melts and then starts to break down and vaporize. It is the vapor gases that actually feed the flame.

So, what happens when the powder surface gets to the molten stage and starts evolving gas, but the flame front hasn't reached it before the bullet pops out? You get grains of powder blowing around that are not ignited. Why aren't they subsequently ignited by the hot gas that follows them down the tube or around the case? I don't know. It may be the softened surface flows into good thermal contact with the barrel and chamber steel which keep it cool enough to escape ignition. I've seen the theory offered that if the bullet gets well underway, expansion can be faster than the burning powder can evolve gas to keep up with it, and the pressure in the bore, therefore, drops enough to cool the gas. Shootingsoftware.com has some examples of pressure traces where the pressure appears to drop to zero, but there is also a digital-to-analog converter input circuit design issue that may explain it, so I am not 100% convinced. There may also be a situation where low pressure and initial temperature allow the surface deterrent coatings to be too effective, so they extinguish the flame because oxygen in the powder molecules aren't released fast enough to sustain combustion without added outside oxygen, as you have when you burn powder in the open air.

Anyway, whatever else is going on, you may want to change to a magnum primer to see if that improves the ignition or, if you are already using one, go the other way in case the magnum primer is unseating your bullet ahead of the powder. You want to find a way to maximize your crimp. You could try a heavier bullet or moving to a copper solid to increase start pressure.
 
Well, I was using questionable primers. Wolf SPP that had corrosion on some of them (trashed those).

I dug up some good CCI primers, and switched to ZIP powder, and all was good!

Thanks for the advice!
Dave
 
I had a similar issue with under-burnt powder when I loaded some .357 Sig rounds with 90 gr bullets using AA#9 powder and CCI standard primers. In addition to the powder residue, the velocity also dropped several hundred FPS under normal.
I didn’t have this issue when using 115 gr bullets with AA#9.
I suspected the lighter bullet was leaving the barrel too early so I switched to a faster powder (Bullseye). That gave me the complete ignition I need with these light bullets and the problem was solved.
 
Bullet weight does make a difference. What causes the problem is the rate of expansion of the powder burning space behind the bullet. A light bullet grows that volume so quickly that slower burning powders don't make gas rapidly enough to reach a reasonable peak pressure before the firing event is over.
 
jus got my 9mm testing done with #7
mixed 9mm brass
winchester SRP
Berrys plated 124g RN
COL 1.150
test gun G19 barrel length 4.02in
all 5 round test groups

6.6 avg 856, SD 30.5, ES 75, failed to cycle the gun, brass still in chamber
6.8 avg 941, SD 16.5, ES 41
7.0 avg 985, SD 36.49, ES 96
7.2 avg 1013, SD 18.04, ES 46
7.4 avg 1061, SD 6.05 ES 16
7.6 avg 1078, SD 8.93, ES 20
7.8 avg 1120, SD 26.42, ES 57
 
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