ummmm.... old primers... better, worse, or the same ???

M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
as I've posted before, I'm getting ready to reload, after a several year break, during that break, my father in law ( a very big time collector & reloader ) died, & we inherted his collection & loading stuff, along with my adding alot of new stuff over those years... so "new to me" is the bullet casting stuff ( & bulk lead to cast ), Lubrisizer, & a more extensive "library" of dies, cartridges, powders & primers...

( for example... after combining his stuff with my old stuff, & things I bought in the many years that I didn't reload, I now have 38 different sets of dies, & need 17 more to cover all the cartridges I currently have guns to chamber )

my question... ( this time ) is about primers...

my father in law had alot of them, all stored in ammo cans, with silica jell packs in the cans, so I'm sure they are all good... ( I just read the ammo can debate... I had been storing mine on a shelf in the original packaging, his had been stored for decade ( s ) in the basement in ammo cans... I've posted on that thread already, so lets discuss that over there, & keep this thread about my questions below )

but...

some are very old ( maybe collectable) a couple that come to mind are the CCI primers, before they shortened the name to just the initials ;) , & at least one box of Remington primers before they went to 4 color packaging, in a 2 color box... several of these are full 1000 packs...

if these are worth more than new primers ( collectable ) please let me know...

if they are not collectable, how have primers changed over the years, could these be "better" than new primers, or have the new ones been improved over these old primers, or if I develope a load around them, & use them up, can I expect that new replacements will fire exactly the same ???

& while we are on the subject of prmers, what the heck is a Bench Rest primer... at least, how is it different than it's standard counterpart ??? more consistant???, hotter, but not as hot as a magnum primer??? cup softer, cup harder ??? just more expensive, but the same ???

thanks for your comments...
 
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my small pistol primers have a hand written date on them when I last bought some. sometime in 1992. they still work fine.

i don't know of any collectible primers, but there may be some.

i have not seen bench rest primers for sale in a while. i think they were a slightly more consistent primer than the norm and as primers got better, basically all primers became very consistent so no need for them anymore.
 
I don't know of any collectable primers, but then I don't pursue such stuff anyhow. You might could sell them on one of the auction sites, but Hazmat shipping would eat up the profits.

Primers well stored as you describe will likely still fire consistently.
Will new primers bought when you run out of old ones be EXACTLY the same?
No, but you might not be able to tell a difference except in a very accurate gun and load.

CCI still makes BR benchrest primers and Federal makes Gold Medal Match primers. Supposedly they are more consistent than standard. I have not run side by side tests but use BR or Match primers in my target loads just in case.
 
Thanks for the replys...

I have over 2000 Bench Rest small rifle Remington 7.5's that are in the newer ( at least of what I have "newer" ) boxes...

also, does anyone know If Remington did anything different with thier large rifle primers ??? I have a box of Remington 9.5's listed as "large Rifle", & a box of Remington 9.5's listed as "large Rifle Magnum" primers ( same era of boxes )... I don't have any other Remington Magnum primers to know, but all other brands seem to use a different "code" between regular & magnum primers ???

BTW... anyone ever seen anything from CCI called Cascade Cartridge Inc. curious as to how old those packs of primers are ??? they've been CCI as long as I've been paying attention...
 
sorry for the horribly long reply

Some folks will tell you that primers do not degrade over time under normal storage conditions. (FWIW, I would call normal conditions an environment that is temp and humidity controlled, such as a retail store or the main level of a residence) Primers stored in ammo cans with packs of dessicant would qualify (IMO anyway) as even better storage.

I don't agree that primers last forever without degrading. I recently bought a box of a thousand Federal small rifle primers, would have to have been from the mid 1980s judging by the red/white/black Federal packaging. I went ahead and bought them knowing full well they were old, because the price was worth taking a little chance. Not a phenomenal deal mind you, just decent.

I've found that I get about 2-3 failures per one hundred. Because of that, I use them for plinking in .30 Carbine out of my Blackhawk. While any/every/all misfires are a colossal PITA, I can better deal with it when plinking. I will not use them for .223 out of my Contender where I may be doing 100 or more yard shooting, or hunting. So I'll be plinking away with them in the .30 Carb Blackhawk, but nothing else.

Your really old stuff may indeed be collectible. I agree that shipping them eats up the collectibility, but if I were you, I'd grab one brick of each REALLY old one and take them with you to your next gun show or (even better) historic firearm collector's show or gathering if you see one. There's always at least one old codger with ammo and ammo boxes from decades long gone by and they might show some interest in these primers. Hell, take one brick of each inside the show, leave all the others in your trunk if someone gets excited over them.

IMO, they do NOT have as much value as new primers for shootability, and I am saying that I don't care WHO says they don't degrade over time, because it's my opinion that unless you know how they were stored in the first year or two after leaving the factory, you won't know until you pop them if they are 100%.

If someone showed interest, I would sell or trade them for ANYTHING that's worth $25 to $30 per thousand in cash or goods to you. If nobody shows any interest whatsoever, maybe try again next time.

If you elect to use them, you will find out at the range how well they work. You will not find out at any other time. You might even trying priming, say, 100 cases, grabbing 5 primers out of the middle of 20 different boxes, and sit there in the basement or back yard and slap off 100 rounds of primer-only loads, and keep track of your failure rate. Afterall, while there's some work and time invested in priming 100 cases and yanking the booger hook on them, the data you collect could give you the confidence to go ahead and put them in to production.

But any/every misfire is not only the wasted effort of loading the round, it's one wasted powder charge per round, it's one bullet that has been seated and pulled (affecting accuracy if you re-use it) and it's the ungodly hassle of pulling each dud round and decapping the brass.

In other words, misfires SUCK out loud, are embarrassing, waste a heap of time and resources and just generally ruin the mood.
 
I’m working on the last 1000 Winchester staynless (yes correct spelling) primers that someone gave me. They are the ones that came in the small cardboard and wooden boxes way back when, and designated as 111 primers. The first 1000 I used worked flawlessly, and don’t seem appreciably different that the standard Winchester primers available today, or at least in the loads I have been using them with. Properly stored I have no idea how long a primer might last.
 
The past summer I used 800 of the 1000 primers in a brick of "old" Cascade Cartridge Inc. primers. They were packed in the small, white, green & black boxes. All 800 worked. Paid $10 for the brick last winter at a gun show.

I have bought many bricks of older primers over the years for $10 or less at gun shows and have have never had a problem. I always test few a few in empty cases before I start loading.

I only buy ones in boxes that are in good condition, and pass on the ones that looks questionable.
 
I still have a 1k sleeve of Norma primers I bought sometime in the late 80's for $10/k. It has the old style "simulated wood" cardboard packaging. Pretty neat stuff. The last time I used them was sometime in the mid 90's as I had 2 packs of these. I am loading some probably late 80's Winchester shotshell primers that I've not had an issue with at all.

As for collectable.. I had 1000 of the Remington 57 primers up till I discovered that termited had eaten the packaging around the primers (when they got into my storage cabinet) earlier this year. Broke my heart but what could I do? They came in between the concrete frame and slab in the garage, ignore the particle board cabinet and ate the cardboard of several packages of primers.. D**M! that sucked. If I'd put them in ammo cans I likely would still have them. :D
 
Got a primer problem

Begin reloading after a decade hiatus...used old CCI primers and had some problems.

Bought new CCI primers, small pistol for 38 and 9mm reloading...and still having an outstanding number of no fires.

Today having bought an almost new Ruger P-85, box, manuel and all...and out of each clip had 2 no fires. I can't imagine I am getting anything in to the powder or spraying the bullets with oil...maybe it is just a bad time of the moon for those primers and me. :confused:

I lube by rolling gently in water based lube the bullet before seating...could this be a problem?
 
Jacks, check your primer depth. A common mistake is not seating the primers deeply enough in the pocket. When the firing pin hits them, the energy does not ignite the primer, but is spent trying to push the primer cup further down in the pocket. Often, they'll fire on second or third strike.

What is your method for priming cases? Make sure they are seated all the way to the bottom, stop BEFORE you start to crush the primer cup.

For an easy reference, grab a factory loaded round and run your thumb over the case head. You want your reloads to feel exactly like that.

Recently, I found another way to cause misfires-- one I wasn't expecting. In loading .30 Carbine for my Blackhawk, I found that brass trimmed too short is impossible to ignite. Because the .30 Carb round headspaces on the case mouth, if too much brass is trimmed away, you effectively make up some dangerous dummy rounds.

That's probably not the problem you are having (unless you are trimming 9mm brass) I hope you aren't trimming 9mm brass, nobody in the world does that. (insert loud mouth comment about the one odd guy who does...)
 
with the 30 carb or any cartridge that head spaces on the case mouth, brass length is critical... I have the equiment to load for the 9mm & 45 auto, but have never loaded for them ( yet ), but I have loaded the 30 carb, 50 A.E. & 50 Special ( mines built on shortened 50 A.E. cases & also head spaces on the case mouth )

but good suggestions on the depth of seating... do the firing pin dimples on the bad primers look to be typical ( depth etc. )... if you are sure you are seating them properly, you could try a softer primer... the Federal & Winchester primers are reportedly "softer" & may help, if the hammer spring is lighter on your gun ???
 
primer problems

Thanks for the intell...will check my primer depth...generally just getting them flat with the surface of the bullet seat, but will try a little further. The spring should be good on both my 9mms, but I might try Federal etc anyway.

Me Much too lazy to trim 9mm brass.
 
Welll, I'm an old guy now so my perspective on old components may be skewed BUT ... fairly recently, maybe only ten years or so ago, a REALLY old guy gave me the remains of his primer stash that included some small pistol caps he had gotten as WWII surplus stuff. Don't know for sure how long they will be good but so far, they work fine.

When I started loading back in '65 I stumbled across a goodly pile of several thousand mixed size (new) Remington caps and still have a few of them. They work as well as newer ones, I've never seen any difference in reliability, velocity or accuracy compaired to new ones.

Sometimes, it ain't the cap, it's the weapon. I have just visited an old buddy who recently sucumbed to the urge to get a CCW and a new Glock. I had convienced him to go with 45ACP rather than the more popluar 9mm, known around here as the autoloading .38 Special +P but failed to sell him on a 1911.

We went shooting in his pasture for an hour or so, he with an assortment of factory stuff and a few of my 180 gr. reloads. After something like 50 rounds for each of us, he'd had 6 jams and 2 failures to fire. The 2 failures were with new factory stuff, both of which he tried twice. My old GI surplus 1911 was flawless and it also fired his "misfires" with aplomb (larger firing pin nose). And my accuracy was better than his too! :D (Guess what he is thinking of trading that plastic toy for now!)

Primer composition, like the basics of powders, was perfected long ago, there have been no real change since the introduction of non-corrosive primers. There is likely more difference between individual primer lots than there is between old and new primers, as such.

Primers of a given type are plenty consistant enough to be safe to interchange, especially between lots of the same brand. You may experience differences in accuracy with a primer change but there should be no problems about safety. If a primer change actually causes pressure problems then you had a load that was far too hot to begin with!

BR (Bench Rest) primers are made exactly the same as others, the factories just use their better/newer machines to make them and inspect them a little more. Few rifles will be able to show any difference on the targets.

The performance of your old primers will depend mostly on how they have been stored AND your firing pin, not their age, per se.
 
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I am shooting reloads right now at 100 yds,loads that have been more accurate before,out of my Marlin 336 30/30, 30.0 gr. 3031 150 gr. Sierra,4-5" groups at 100 yds,using old stock Staynless yellow box(50-60s?) Now,while this would definitely kill the deer,4-5"groups are not my idea of accurate in this rifle,1 1/2" is,the load is at the higher levels yes,but worked up to and used before.,also 170 gr.sierras do better in this rifle, but not that much,It could be the result of the cumulative deficiencies.or barrel wear over time? However the glaring one possibility,unknown primers bought at a yard sale ,60 years old,with unknown storage till I got them.do they work,yes,but not much of a difference could mean a lot for target grade accuracy ,even at 100 yds with a 30/30
 
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