ultimate backwoods pistol

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UltralightBob

Inactive
Ive been a long time observer, so I figured it was high time I registered and reached out to the forum. My apologies in advance for the lengthy intro here.

I spend a lot of time in the woods, and while a carried pistol may not represent the end-all for back country safety, I do prefer to carry enough firepower to protect myself or family in the event a two or four legged critter decided to make me a target. However, I am all about going in as "ultralight" as possible. This has led me through a number of carried pistols over the years, as I attempt to find the ultimate compromise of lightweight/shootability/firepower.... Pistols I've carried include NAA 22mag (Black Widow), Kel Tec PMR30, Kahr CM9, FN57, Glock 19 (with 960 Rowland Conversion and 6 inch LWD barrel), S&W 340PD, FNX45TAC with 460R conversion, Taurus 44Mag, and Kel Tec PLR16. Ive found the 22mag to be super lightweight, and easy to shoot... but lacking in enough firepower to make me feel comfortable when something goes bump in the night. The 44 mag on the other end of the scale is too heavy to carry IMO and is harder to shoot well, and it lacks capacity... despite its superior firepower. The FN57 is a great shooter, lightweight, has great capacity, but the little bullet lacks umph IMO. The 340PD with hot 357 mag rounds might be super light and have enough umph, but it is too painful to shoot well, and lacks capacity with only 5rds. I do like my G19 with the LWD 6 inch barrel and 15rds, but I've found that I would prefer a bit more umph (the 9mm diameter bullet just seems lacking when compared with alternatives like a 45 cal or 10mm).

Just a quick disclaimer... I'm not looking for a debate on whether a pistol or bear spray is better medicine for larger carnivores that may be encountered... although insightful/anecdotal comments on the topic could be helpful. Ive used bear spray on a bear before... and found it inadequate, and prefer the pistol approach. Nor am I in a position to haul a 5 pound shotgun or lever action rifle. I tend to recreate in areas where grizzly are unlikely to be encountered (not AK) and Blackbears, wolves, lions, and coyotes are what I normally encounter....

So, after doing some more math, I've resolved that my next backwoods pistol (in my perpetual search for the "best" backwoods gun for my ultralight needs...) should have at least 500ft lbs of energy, hit at least a "14" on the TKO and KPS scores. This rules out the 9mm options, and all but the hottest 357 loads (including magnum... unless it is out of a 4 inch or longer barrel). It also needs to have a capacity of at least 8 rounds on tap. It needs to be "shootable" with manageable recoil (something you could reasonably shoot a box of 20-50 rounds in a sitting). The whole package needs to weigh less than 34 ounces loaded. It also must have a way to add a light and a laser.

So for example:
A Glock 29 10mm with stock length barrel, TLR6 laser light, and 10rds of 220gr buffalo bore hard cast will be between 34 and 35 ounces, only hits between an 11 and a 13 on the TKO and KPS scale. Recoil would be manageable, and possible improvements could be a heavier spring. But to reach my "14" TKO threshold, it would require a longer aftermarket barrel to increase velocity... which would take me well beyond my 34 ounce threshold (likely up to about 37 ounces... at about an ounce per inch of barrel).

A Glock 30S (the version of the G30 that has a G36 slide) with a 5.5 inch (from BarSto) threaded barrel, a .45 cal micro compensator, TLR6 laser light, and 10 rounds of hot 255gr 45 SUPER would weigh about a half ounce less than the stock G29, and hit between a 17 and a 19 on the TKO and KPS scale. It might even have a more manageable recoil than the G29 with the compensator... Ive read of guys loading 45 super up to 460 Rowland pressures... and with my comp setup here, and a heavier spring, that could be an option... however there might be a sacrifice of reliability with moving away from the stock glock barrel... thoughts anyone? An option with this alternative could be to do a 10mm barrel instead, or possibly something like a 40 Super.

A S&W 329PD 44Mag could be a viable option... as it comes in at the same 33-34 ounce range (with 6 rounds in the chamber and 4 in my pocket... to get to the same 10 rounds side by side comparison). Ive never had the opportunity to shoot one, but I hear that with Buffalo Bore's light recoiling 44mag hard cast, it can be at least manageable to shoot... however, it is a bulkier pistol, would certainly still recoil more than the Glock options, and only holds 6 rounds. But it is a revolver... which may have some reliability upsides to the semi-auto? Thoughts anyone?

Any other pistol/cartridge combinations or modifications (aftermarket, stock, or otherwise) that might fit my criteria that I am not considering?

Some other factors I would be interested in your input on would be: Noise?? for example, has anyone seen a chart or scale to compare the sound volume decibels between something like regular 45ACP and 45Super vs 10mm or other wildcat rounds like 40 Super or 10x25 Dillon?

Considerations I am NOT interested in at this time are; Cost (at this point, I don't care about the cost or availability of ammo for the various options... just what is the most effective and lightweight option).
 
Don't know the weight off hand but the FS glock 10mm would be a good choice, very shootable , 12rds I think, adequate power with 2 extra mags is good security
 
Here was my version of the "Ultimate woods gun" for a while.
A Glock 20 with the grip shortened to glock 29 (since I live in a ten round state anyways and have to carry concealed while in the woods.)

Forget the light and it might fit your criterial.
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Double Tap 200gr Hardcast loads at 1300fps have been used to take cape buffalo. That load has stopped at least 2 documented grizzly charges. That is what I carry in my G20 or G29 when in bear country. That load beats anything in 357 mag and is a lot closer to 44 mag when the revolver loads are fired in 4" or shorter barrels than most understand. Anywhere else I carry a G19

High Valley, I like your conversion, might just have to do that to my G20. But I have a question. I don't see any sights, is it just the angle?

Forget about the BS TKO and other mathematical computations that try to predict bullet performance. Only 2 things matter. Shot placement and penetration. With the right bullets there are a lot of cartridges that will give adequate penetration.

And we sometimes overthink this. Even outdoors and in bear country the biggest threat is still from other humans. I believe in dealing with the bigger threat 1st. I feel that a 10mm pistol with 11-16 rounds (the 15 round G20 mags still work in the G29) is versatile enough to be effective on the largest predator and still be a viable option for human threats. Both are more compact and lighter than any 4" revolver and recoil is tolerable even with the hottest loads.

This is an interesting study. They looked at 37 documented instances where handguns were used in bear attacks. They were successful in all but one instance and it is thought that the shooter missed all of his shots with a 357 magnum revolver. There are several instances of both black and grizzly bear. The most commonly used cartridge was 44 mag, but 9mm, 10mm, 40 S&W and 45 combined for more successful stops than 44.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5Ucf4zGTb

And with the better loads even a 9mm can be effective against the largest bear. Scroll to the bottom, Shoemaker is the 1st to comment. He didn't just choose a 9mm on a whim. He had spent a lot of time testing it beside larger guns and was confident in its ability. He's been guiding and killing 1000 lb bear for 33 years and knows what it takes to kill one.

http://concealednation.org/2017/05/...e-caliber-debate-gets-ruined-for-many-people/
 
That G20 with the shortened grip is awesome! No real downside I can see between that and the longer grip, as you could in theory still shoot the higher cap mags with a grip sleeve.... Do you have access to a scale you could put it on to see what the weight savings is with the shorter grip? Just curious.
 
I only use the TKO and KPS scores to allow me to compare apples to apples with the ballistics. There is no single perfect way to be able to compare different calibers and bullets to each other in order to identify the pros and cons of each, so I like to look at as many indicators as possible (the higher the sectional density the better for penetration, higher the KE energy the better, higher score on KPS and TKO, etc, etc.) If anyone has a better way of comparing one with another, that would be most helpful.
 
Unfortunately, I do not have the pistol having sold it. But the gen 4 glock 20 with unloaded magazine lists as 31 oz. This one took the g29 ten round mag, so it would be slightly lighter.
The actually grip part I cut off was less than an couple of ounces.
 
I have a 30S but I haven’t found a lot of options for aftermarket barrels so I outfitted my 30 with a threaded barrel. I did it for a Suppressor.

Have you considered the Glock 40? If you want to stay Compact and efficient, a 10 mm is no slouch, and the higher capacity would be great for follow up shots. It’s much easier to shoot a Glock than a revolver, when it comes to learning curves.

If I didn’t stock or reload for so many calibers, I would have gotten a 10 mm, by now.

Revolvers have a heavy weight and a lower round count, which limits practicality. Though, I am a revolver guy.
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WAAAAAAY over thinking with TKO'S KPS's ABC's XYZ's what ever in the world they are.
If you want an easy to carry, high capacity semi auto with a lot of punch without punishing recoil just get a Glock 20sf, and be done. If you insist on even lighter, go with the G29.
 
Not a gun suggestion but check out the chest holsters sold by HillPeopleGear. Designed for hiking and backpacking, have enough capacity for even large handguns and promise to carry fairly comfortably ( I just bought one,haven’t taken it out yet).
 
i carry the g29......got a deal on a stormlake 5"barrel because i wanted to support the cartridge if i went with hotter rounds and had it machined with a screw on barrel protector so it didnt look so funny. I agree with the others, you may be overthinking some of this. The g29 with buffalo bore hot loads is a handful to shoot but I dont see anything coming at me surviving it.
 
If I were going for a wheelgun, I'd use my 327 Fed Mag, Ruger 101. But I think for power, tho not necessarily for weight, (or cost) I'd go for a Desert Eagle in 357 Mag. I do wish I had one -- but can't afford one'
 
An ongoing investigation into a grizzly bear attack on some hunters that left a man dead has produced a preliminary recommendation that the outfitter company review their training.

The Wyoming Occupational Safety and Health Administration, in conjunction with state conservation officials and the Teton County Sheriff’s office, has been examining the case of the bear attack on bowhunter Corey Chubon and hunting guide Mark Uptain, 37, that left the latter dead in September.

Although both had bear spray and Uptain had a 10mm Glock in a shoulder holster, WyoFile reported that the gun, determined by investigators to be in working condition, did not have a round in the chamber and the guide had taken the pistol off while he helped Chubon dress an elk the sportsman had harvested.

The bear, who conservation officers believe was attracted to the scent of the felled elk, attacked Uptain first and Chubon, who went for the handgun, could not get a shot off.

“There was not a round in the chamber, so the gun was empty. He couldn’t make the gun work,” said Wyoming Game and Fish Regional Wildlife Supervisor Brad Hovinga, who went on to explain that the magazine was dropped from the gun at some point it was found in a different location from the Glock.
Fatal Wyoming bear attack: No round in the chamber on handgun...
I think I would go with a Revolver.. Just saying...
 
I always figured that if you don't get the job done with the first three rounds then whatever critter is attacking you will already be on you. If true, then the high capacity is useless, maybe even a liability if you have become reliant upon high capacity. If you are gonna go that way, you might consider practicing with just 3 rounds in your magazine so that you are forced to become a better shot and can't take it for granted that you always have more. You probably should just go with whatever gun is most reliable for you on the first shot; the one you shoot the best, even if it only holds five rounds.
 
I like my Glock 20SF ...stoked with Underwood 200gr XTP ... A 10mm with high quality ammo is hard to beat

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Fatal Wyoming bear attack: No round in the chamber on handgun...
I think I would go with a Revolver.. Just saying...
Click to expand...
or just go with 'one in the chamber'..on any Glock, if it's there for defense.
 
Being killed by a 4-legged predator ranks in probability right up there with being struck by lightning (and I have been struck by lighting several times, but never attacked by a bear). But anyway, I get your gist.

I have a big .45 LC Blackhawk that could probably kill a rhino, but realistically, heavy .357 (say, from Buffalo Bore), which gets up to 6-700 ft/lbs, is going to be plenty. If you are walking, and weight matters, a 3" SP101 is compact and weighs 27 oz. With Hogue grips, I can handle those loads, but I wouldn't want to try it with anything lighter than the SP101. Reliable as a boat anchor, and simple to operate, but, yeah, only 5 rounds, and you are not going to be doing anything with a speedloader when a bear charges at 40 MPH. This is a very versatile handgun, since it is concealable, and also shoots lightweight plinking 38s.

Otherwise, the G20. Maybe it was me, but I couldn't hit anything with my G29 and swapped it for the Ruger, with no regrets.

And I am not sure of relying too much on Taylor, since modern hardcast ammo was not then available. Heavy hardcast loads, like Buffalo Bore and Doubletap, are designed to break bones in a way that soft lead would not have.
 
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