U.S. Gov't Intel...WTF ???

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paratrooper

New member
We live in a country where a group of people will zero in on one guy for selling a shotgun . They found him , surrounded him AND killed members of his family .
With all this ability to find things and find things out we are the buffoons of the planet . Two Embassies bombed and we "think" we know who did it . Over 200 Marines killed in their sleep in Lebanon. USS Cole damaged and Sailors killed .Aircraft blows up over Scotland and we "may" have the guys that did it . There's a ton more but typing and vomiting are difficult to do together .
Why can't they exert the same effort they seem to have when an American citizen has GASP!!!! a gun that holds too many rounds for the Gov'ts comfort and use it to do some good .
Fear not 100 lions led by a sheep but rather fear 100 sheep led by a lion . Klinton is doing a baaaaaaaad job of protecting the stuff he said he would .

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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
Lot safer to kill Americans who don't shoot back.If they go after someone out there they might have to risk their lives.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
I think we spend more on hardware; satalites, com intercepts etc; than on human agents on site. The hardware can not detect emotion, see facial expression nor otherwise pick up the things that person to person would. Thus tho we have gained asset movement identification capability, we have lost intent identification capability.

Add in the interservice propiatarial turf mentality seperating the CIA from NIC from Treasury from Diplomatic Corps from Naval Intel from Army Intel etc etc. Causing the left hand to not know what the right hand is doing.

Then we have the age old problem of the powers that be not listening to good intel reports, assessments and evaluations.

We are good at throwing masses of money and manpower in lebenteen different directions and getting mediocre results.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Good points, Sam.
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All,

Note that intelligence organizations must work secretly. More secret than the information they develop are the methods used to develop that information. Therefore, their successes or failures are seldom reported or reported accurately.

For example, when the Russians invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968, the American Army General serving as Commander of all American forces in Europe stated in writing that we had absolutely no clue that the Russians were going to invade. He called it a huge failure of our intelligence system.

That was a total and complete lie. I know. I read the messages and he did also. We all were warned before the invasion but a national-level intelligence organization ordered the reporting unit to cancel the messages and cease reporting.

I've always wondered why that reporting was cancelled.
- Did we have prior knowledge?
- Were we afraid to interfere with the invasion?
- Did that invasion somehow serve our "national interests"?
- Was there prior notice to the Russians that we would not "interfere"?

(sigh) If only Paul Harvey could tell us "The Rest of the Story"! ;)
 
Sam is absolutely correct (which is hardly a surprise to those who follow his posts). I hope he won't mind if I expand slightly on his points, since this is an area in which I have some experience.

We (particularly in combination with the UK) have unequalled capabilities in gathering, cataloging, and analyzing technical (non-human) intelligence: imagery, electronics intelligence, and so forth. This is extremely useful against sophisticated, industrialized nations and societies, such as the Soviet Union during the 1945 to 1990 period.

Because of our successes in this area, the perceived excesses of the Watergate/Vietnam period (i.e., The Church Committee, et al), and the professed unimportance of certain "third world" areas to the great US - USSR battle of the last fifty years, we inadequately invested in human intelligence -- particularly in these "third world" regions.

However, we are now confronted with adversaries from exceptionally closed and guarded third world societies. Our technical capabilities are not fully applicable in these arenas and human intelligence networks are unusually difficult to develop/maintain due to religious, political, and social mores that keep those societies largely distrustful of Westerners.

In sum, when terrorism is financed by nation states and/or cliques under extreme secrecy and then executed by small factions -- without the use of devices or physical facilities that are vulnerable to our imagery and electronics collection methods -- our intelligence community operates at a decided disadvantage.
 
Don't forget, HUMINT is expensive, (not that SIGINT, ELINT, COMINT, and MASINT aren't, but they're somewhat less conspicuous and risky) it's hard to recruit for without leaving a potential trail, could be turned around into a double agent, may have to remain "buried" or "deep cover" for a long period of time, and the data may have to be camped on due to a larger intel goal. IE, (hypothetical) a Hesbollah attack on an Israeli outpost may not be interceded, in order to collect even more intel on the organization, sources, methods, logistics, and networking, maybe to connect it all back to Osama bin Laden.

Information warfare, baby, that's where it's at!
 
You both make some very good points here! Let me add a bit of potential importance to everyone.

When the opposition is large and has a unified, formal architecture it is easier to obtain intelligence (by many various means); however, small independent units, unified only by "cause", seldom communicate with other, similar units. Each group is an independent "cell" made up of a few individuals beholden only to the other members of the cell and united by their individual common goal.

Some cells are very autocratic - others, amazingly democratic. But all cell members zealously believe both in the cause and in the methods which that particular cell will employ.

When such cells have access to means of "resistance" (explosives, small arms, etc.), not even their supplier knows precisely what will occur.

That meshes nicely with the awareness that one man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter"!

That is good information to remember.

(Wolverines!)



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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Spook reunion?

edited to add...RWK and Dennis, thanks and feel free, always.

Sam...like a selectric, quite correctable and ameniable to amendment.

[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited October 14, 2000).]
 
I agree with everything posted-except...The Ruby Ridge deal was a set-up. The poor guy was set up to sell that shotgun to an undercover agent.

sad time in Amerika. :(
 
The best way to get intel.....pay good money for it . The best way to NOT get good money......give us BAD intel . You keep the price up and you will be suprised how much GOOD intel will surface .
Why do you think people offer rewards ? So the BG's friends will rat him out for $25,000 or so .
Hook this together with people that can decipher this intel and you got a WINNER!!!!
As for having intel and NOT using it . Am I hearing that someone lets people , our people , other Americans die so as to keep getting intel ? How many lives must be at stake before it is foiled ? This better not be true !!!!

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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
It seems that in this case the US has a real problem with decentralized planning and execution of terror attacks. In my opinion it is a near impossibility to penetrate a cell unless a member himself steps forward for whatever reason. Having recently finished Levchenko's book "On The Wrong Side" one can employ KGB MICE analysis at an elementary level. MICE is an acronym for Money, Ideology, Corruption (might be something else, memory's fuzzy on this one), Ego. These are the agents tools for turning an opponent.

The xenophobic nature of islam and the islamists in particular precludes many of the tactics available against more conventional agents. Let's take a look at how these tools are neutralized or weakened. Keep in mind islamists live in paranoia of Jews, Freemasons, the CIA, MI6, etc and reasonable human doubts which are ascribed to Shaitan/Iblis (Satan).

Money: The false prophet taught the early mujahideen to scorn love of the world and embrace Paradise. Indeed he said "You think they are dead (the shaheeds or martyrs) but they live on." As in many religions love of wealth is discouraged. Those who willingly take on the path of martyrdom are hardly storing up their earthly treasures. And what counts for more? Earthly luchre or eternal paradise surrounded by houris (lovely virgins) and eternal erections?

Ego: What is a shaheed? A hero, a martyr, a special person. His memory is honored by the Ummah and he may even get a web-page, special grave, or some honorific place in the myth-making process. He will enjoy Paradise and the attention of lovely virgins forever. Also the negation of his earthly life commands the attention of Allah. Is anything in Creation (Dunya) higher than attention from the Most-High? Of course not. Psychologically this act of ritual human sacrifice is the pinnicle of narcissism, and self-importance. Tough to match or beat it.

Corruption: As is the case with money the ethical restraint of religion hinder the use of this tactic. Worldly, corrupt people are hardly looking to go out in a explosion of glory.

Ideology: Islam is considered to be a total way of life, ideologically perfect.Effectively this makes it a totalitarian way of life. Individual thought is strongly discouraged as is intellectual curiousity. The masses are kept in ignorance. Dissenting intellectuals are intimidated or killed. Recent examples include Faraj Foda and Ahmet Kislali. Kislali disagreed with a scholar that the recent earthquakes in Turkey were divine punishment from Allah. He is was blown up in his car. Dozens of Turkish intellectuals were burned to death in their hotel at a conference by islamists. Apostates (Rida) are to be punished with death. What is better? Dying or saying prayers everyday with the rest of your friends?

Perhaps the best HUMINT tactic is related to ideology, conscience. Is Islam truely an aggressive religion or is it being distorted by a few aggressive, psychotic persons, Kharajites? Persons of good heart and peace must feel that their beautiful religion is being hijacked by a minority of maniacs. Hopefully the True Believer will manifest his Deen to limit the violent actions of the mischief makers. By restraining the mischief makers he will stop Fitna and strife. This will gain the reward of Allah and Paradise. Allah's blessings and Peace Be Upon those who incline to reconciliation and peace.
 
Invitations can be written on Hotel Caravelle stationery, just happen to have some. Hold it at the Ladbrooke Belgravia and agitate the Brits, amongst a lot of others.

Sam...never cut engines till shure you are in the right country.
 
Good thing we have a translator. I thought they were a bunch of sociologists.

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
A small thought somewhat loosely connected to Bam Bam's post: A leather shop owner commented to me today that the two guys in the boat that blew up next to the USS Cole were probably VERY suprised when they woke up and found out they weren't in Paradise.

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If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paratrooper:
As for having intel and NOT using it . Am I hearing that someone lets people , our people , other Americans die so as to keep getting intel ? How many lives must be at stake before it is foiled ? This better not be true !!!!
[/quote]

Of course it's true. One of the most classic examples is Coventry, England during WWII... The "greater good" and all that.



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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
 
Getting inside a terrorist cell is nowhere near the same thing as infiltrating the 3rd reich or the USSR! Anyone asking questions is quickly noticed when there are no more than 30 people "in the loop". Sometimes it's far fewer.

Further we're talking about people who are fanatical about what they beleive. Being an Arab I can tell you that there is NOTHING in this culture that compares.

You cant understand. We will never be able to get inside and be preemptive, our best hope is to have cells "rat each other out" but still they dont/wont want to talk to "Gods enemy".

To the Fanatic we are Demons. How many of you would be willing to give up your soul to talk to the devil?
 
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