Two incidents in one day...

T

Tom68

New member
I read much more here than I post, and from that I have learned plenty. More importantly, I have read of the experiences of others, and filed it away for the day that one of your experiences may happen to me.

This past weekend, I experienced both a hangfire and a misfire. Both times my son was shooting, and I was observing.

I had already primed 60 each 8x57 cases with CCI 200 primers, intending to assemble them all for load testing, but after the first 40 (20 ea. with IMR 4895 and IMR 4064--they worked just fine), I decided to put together some blasting loads for my son to enjoy. For this I choose the powder for which I had the greatest quantity on-hand (846, using BL-(c)2 data, slightly above a minimum load). I wasn't going for accuracy here... since I had not used a magnum primer, I didn't expect to get the best performance. I did however, expect that they would all WORK.

First, on about the 5th round, I heard the action go "click" and then a split-second later, heard the bang. I've read about them lots here, but this is the first time I've experienced one. It was really only a split-second from click to fire, but thankfully he's well trained enough to keep it downrange.

The second misfire was much more puzzling. On maybe the 12th or so, I heard the "click" and nothing else. I instructed him to keep pointing downrange, and we'd wait a full 60 seconds before ejecting the cartridge. When that time passed, an empty case was ejected, but powder was spilling out of it, into the action... and when I tapped it against the palm of my hand, a plug of ball powder came out, most of it colored yellow. I still have no idea what caused that... i'm guessing either a case, contaminated with case lube or something else, or a compromised primer that got something in it. But I can't help wondering if the standard primer with ball powder had something to do with it? Oh, and I might add... the bullet WAS stuck in the bore, so that ended shooting with that particular rifle that day (thankfully I had another mauser on hand to finish what I had loaded)....and also thankfully the bullet was easily removed later with a cleaning rod, stuck just in the lands.

It's worth noting that I loaded about 200 cartridges during this week using the same brick of CCI 200 primers, and the only issues were with this lot of 8x57 using ball powder. Every other cartridge performed flawlessly (albeit with stick powder). So, what does the TFL community think caused this crazy yellow plug powder condition?
 
Ball powder and mild primers caused it.
Ball powder needs CCI magnum primers.
WW standard are probably ok, designed for it.
 
very interesting

The powder was yellow because the partial burn you got took off the graphite coating of the powder, the pressure fused the powder together to make the plug Why did you have a hang fire? Was the powder or primer old or contaminated? The only time I have experienced hang fires was some old military surplus 7mm mauser ammo that was lose rounds in a bucket at a GI surplus store in the 70s and the ammo was likely ww 2 vintage stuff ( I'm getting old too). Interested in hearing more about it.
bb

Now I see Watson's post that may well explain it
 
I suspect the same condition that caused the misfire also caused the hangfire. The difference was that in the hangfire the powder did finally ignite; in the misfire it didn't. Whether that was due to the wrong type of primers or some other cause, I don't know. In my limited experience with ball powder, I have never had any problems igniting it with standard primers, but there are lots of variables and lots of advice out there.

Jim
 
I've not seen any consistent load manual requirement to use magnum primers with ball powder--and I load a lot of W748 in .223 and W760 in 30-06.
 
Buzzard, the powder was surplus in 8 lb. jug, don't know if it was pull-down or not. I've used quite a bit of it, mostly in 5.56, and have never experienced any issues with it.... albeit using a magnum primer (usually a CCI 41).

Sawdust, I'm with you on the inconsistency of published data regarding magnum primers and ball powders. Speer #14 is normally my first reference, and every ball rifle powder I can recall that they recommend normally has the asterisk beside it, indicating a magnum primer was used. My second reference is Hodgdon's online data, which to my knowledge does not differentiate primer type by powder type.

Like I said before, this was just plinking ammo so performance was not a major concern, but it did have an interesting outcome... now I know a little more about WHY it can make a difference. One more interesting point though... with the second mishap, the only sound I heard was the action snap: I did not hear a primer pop at all, yet the force was sufficient to firmly stick the bullet in the bore. I've never popped a primer without powder just to hear what it sounds like, but I would have expected some noise.

My biggest shudder was thinking that someone not paying attention could have easily chambered another round without thinking twice. I'm glad my son was there to experience it, because I used the matter as a teaching point and made sure he understood what to do should it ever occur again. Gotta love those important lessons that don't cost anything!
 
OP said:
...biggest shudder was thinking that someone not paying
attention could have easily chambered another round....
Click to expand...

GOOD Catch. :eek: :D

Two general rules I follow:

Ball powder --> Always Mag primer [period]
Ball Powder --> Never < 85%++ fill [ever]

I don't wring my hands over "shoulda/if/when" here.
I just do it.






post: The only hang/FTF I ever had was with some (commercially) reloaded 7.7 JAP
that my son's father-in-law brought to the range. It went PopHsssssssss .... with lotsa
smoke from action -- and yea verily stuck the bullet ahead of plugs of fused yellowish
clumps of propellant.

Pulling the remaining bullets I found about a 75% fill of.... [drum roll please] ball powder.
I called the manufacturer and we had a [reasonably] upbeat conversation about recall.

.
 
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I decided to put together some blasting loads
Click to expand...

The time frame between putting together blasting loads and firing at the range can eliminate the guessing. There had to be something in the case before loading.

I use the RCBS case prep center. It has 5 positions for attachments, I install a brush in the back center position. I know, everyone else uses the brush on the top of the housing, I like the agitation of the brushes, I want my tools to do most of the work. I prefer clean necks.

I tested a rifle with ammo I did not load, firing the ammo reminded me of shooting fire crackers. pull the trigger, allow time for the powder to burn through the clod and then bang. Big problem, if the clot is in the neck end of the case the rifle and shooter can be rendered scrap.

F. Guffey
 
Another example of WC-846 refusal to fire! I had the same experience with WC-846 in a 45-70 load. I'm not too sure, been several years, but it was NOT a full load, probably about half full. IIRC it was with lead boolits in my NEF buffalo hunter. A couple of hangfires, then a complete no-fire. Just a click of the hammer and a wisp of smoke. Didn't unseat the boolit. I quit shooting those loads, went home to pull them down.

The powder on the no-fire round was the same yellow clump in the back half of the powder column. No more using that powder in big bores, it works fine for .223.

The ones that did fire, about half were hang fires, the group was huge. Showing movement of the rifle from the extreme lock time. Since loading a full case of that powder in that rifle would be an overload, it'll never be used for that again.
 
Had a very simular experience once.

When I first got my AK I zeroed the sights at 25 meters but didn't have a place to confirm zero at 100 meters. One weekend I was going to a church retreat where they had a short 25 yard rifle range and we all bring our guns. The camp was a few miles from my Dad's hunting property so I asked if I could stop there on my way to the camp to zero my gun.

I had it just about set, shooting 5 rounds at time, walking to mark the target, adjusting and redoing. I loaded the last 5 rounds in a mag, fired two shots, and on the third shot there was nothing. I didn't hear anything, but was wearing ear protection. I ejected the case and noticed that the chamber and action was full of "stuff". I didn't see the case because it landed in the tall weeds and grass.

I was perplexed because I was sure I had loaded 5 rounds. I put a new mag in the gun and was about to chamber a round when I thought better, and emptied the gun and checked the barrel. Sure enough the bullet was stuck in the barrel about an inch.

Luckily I stopped when I did. I was alone in the woods, 30 miles from town and 50 yards from my truck. If I had fired another round I would have ruined the gun and most likely my hand and face. Apparently the primer ignited, but the powder was bad. I did not hear the primer pop, but it did have enough force to drive the bullet an inch into the barrel.

I used my cleaning rod to get it out the next day. Now when I run it empty I always check to make sure the last round was ejected before that click because with an AK the bolt returns even after the last round in a mag. The only way to be sure it not a misfire is to visually verify that the chamber was empty.

I guess the lesson here is when the unexpected happens, STOP, THINK, ASSESS the situation.
 
Wow, interesting info on ball powders needing mag primers. I've loaded probably a thousand rounds of varied charge weight .308 and 5.56 gas gun using W748 and standard rifle primers , not one issue as of yet.
 
I too had this problem today when I was at the rifle range today. I was using a 505 Gibbs with loads of 125grs of H4831SC which is the same as H4831 but powder granules are cut in smaller sizes to help meter in powder measures. First three rounds fired ok but the fourth round went click instead of bang, After waiting a minute before opening the action, I was surprised to see the bullet lodged about an !/8" in the lands and grooves and the powder that pored out of the case was yellow and clumpy as if fused together by heat. Powder was stick type and recently bought, primer was magnum and non had any contamination from sizing. Cases were new also and never loaded before. I've been reloading for over 40 years now and have only run into this situation on other time many years ago and if I remember right, it was with a large capacity case also like a 458 H&H or 375 H&H. I thought it was some bad powder but don't think so now. Below is a picture of the powder.
DSC02189_zpsyhp3wxva.jpg
 
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