twice in the belly once in the head
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Wow. Ballsey thread.
I haven't had to use reloads to defend myself personally, but I am not blind to that particular can of worms as the DA would view it. If there was ANY scrutiny as to the proper use of deadly force in a situation, you'd be made to look like you "Specially prepared and loaded ammunition for the soul purpose of ending someone's life". While this is the entire point anyway, you may be hurting for sympathy from the jury who now see's you as a trigger-happy gun nut.
You'll look like you were expecting trouble and were quick on the trigger.
Personally, I'd rather use some personal loads for defense, but currently only carry factory defense ammo from Speer for a number of reasons: primarily because "I just like it."
This may get interesting...
~LT
I haven't had to use reloads to defend myself personally, but I am not blind to that particular can of worms as the DA would view it. If there was ANY scrutiny as to the proper use of deadly force in a situation, you'd be made to look like you "Specially prepared and loaded ammunition for the soul purpose of ending someone's life". While this is the entire point anyway, you may be hurting for sympathy from the jury who now see's you as a trigger-happy gun nut.
You'll look like you were expecting trouble and were quick on the trigger.
Personally, I'd rather use some personal loads for defense, but currently only carry factory defense ammo from Speer for a number of reasons: primarily because "I just like it."
This may get interesting...
~LT
oneounceload
Moderator
I don't know - if you reload Remington brass with Remington bullets and Remington primers (or sub the maker of your choice), are they really going to know? And even if they did, if you followed and established recipe to the letter, why would it make any difference at all? Now if you loaded some of the idiot loads people here seem to talk about - flechettes, etc., then you take your chances.
YMMV
YMMV
You'll look like you were expecting trouble and were quick on the trigger. Wouldn't the same case be made by the simple fact you are carrying concealed.
The reason for asking is because the last box of factory rounds I purchased was back when Evan Marshal and some other guy were doing one shot stop statistics..I bought a box of blazer lswchp, and it turns out blazer doesn't market this load anymore. I have a few left, and sometimes put them in the gun du jour, but they're old and probably should be replace. Do I need to purchase factory defense loads for all of my different calibres I carry. I load rounds that will do double duty that aren't readily available commercially.
The reason for asking is because the last box of factory rounds I purchased was back when Evan Marshal and some other guy were doing one shot stop statistics..I bought a box of blazer lswchp, and it turns out blazer doesn't market this load anymore. I have a few left, and sometimes put them in the gun du jour, but they're old and probably should be replace. Do I need to purchase factory defense loads for all of my different calibres I carry. I load rounds that will do double duty that aren't readily available commercially.
cougar gt-e
New member
No, and I don't worry about that either. But thankfully, I don't have any direct experience with it either. So, you can feel free to ignore the rest of the post.
After all, with the ammo shortage, retail sale reloads are extremely common. What's the difference between my shooting a reload bought as one of 1000, one that I reloaded and a never been shot round?
I suspect that with the improvement in JHP performance over the past 10-15 years, that there aren't many things that can be done by a home re-loader to make a round "more deadly" than a factory SD round. (and not have the barrel burst). How can a store bought 9mm +P or +P+ JHP be "less deadly"?
By the same logic, wouldn't carrying a .45acp over a 9mm (or .380 or ...) put you at the same risk? After all, there are literally millions of posts detailing how a .45acp will drop a mad rhino (or drug crazed BG) in his tracks with one shot to the little toe! Ok, I may exaggerate a slight amount, but an anti-gun DA can more easily make the case that a shoot with a .45 was because shooter was intending his shots to be "more deadly". Same as a shoot with a +P+ or +P 9mm round over a shoot with a straight 9mm. God help the poor schmuck that has to defend himself with a 10mm or .454 Casul or (gasp!) a "Dirty Harry man killing .44 magnum -->the most powerful handgun in the world".
That's my opinion and thankfully, I have no experience in the legal woes of justifying a shooting.
After all, with the ammo shortage, retail sale reloads are extremely common. What's the difference between my shooting a reload bought as one of 1000, one that I reloaded and a never been shot round?
I suspect that with the improvement in JHP performance over the past 10-15 years, that there aren't many things that can be done by a home re-loader to make a round "more deadly" than a factory SD round. (and not have the barrel burst). How can a store bought 9mm +P or +P+ JHP be "less deadly"?
By the same logic, wouldn't carrying a .45acp over a 9mm (or .380 or ...) put you at the same risk? After all, there are literally millions of posts detailing how a .45acp will drop a mad rhino (or drug crazed BG) in his tracks with one shot to the little toe! Ok, I may exaggerate a slight amount, but an anti-gun DA can more easily make the case that a shoot with a .45 was because shooter was intending his shots to be "more deadly". Same as a shoot with a +P+ or +P 9mm round over a shoot with a straight 9mm. God help the poor schmuck that has to defend himself with a 10mm or .454 Casul or (gasp!) a "Dirty Harry man killing .44 magnum -->the most powerful handgun in the world".
That's my opinion and thankfully, I have no experience in the legal woes of justifying a shooting.
I've carried reloads on duty in LE, I carry them in my carry pistol since I retired. I wrote our state Attorney General on the subject and his reply is there is no problem in Wyoming. I've never seen a legit case where someone got in trouble while using reloads in a self defense situation where the Ammo caused the problem alone.
But if it worries you, don't carry it, one less thing to worry about.
However here is an excellent article on the subject. You make the choice for what works for you.
Pasted article deleted for violation of TFL's copyrighted materials policy. http://thefiringline.com/forums/announcement.php?f=1
But if it worries you, don't carry it, one less thing to worry about.
However here is an excellent article on the subject. You make the choice for what works for you.
Pasted article deleted for violation of TFL's copyrighted materials policy. http://thefiringline.com/forums/announcement.php?f=1
"Twice in the belly and once in the head..."
The State police are trained to do this ^^ exactly! Once you have crossed the line to lethal force your shots should be "If your lucky" Twice to the belly and once to the head!
There is no shoot to injure orders in any LE department!
The State police are trained to do this ^^ exactly! Once you have crossed the line to lethal force your shots should be "If your lucky" Twice to the belly and once to the head!
There is no shoot to injure orders in any LE department!
Actually, they can tell. The gun powder used in factory loads is proprietary to the manufacturer. The gunpowder they use is not available to us. This is why it is immposible to duplicate a factory load because we would never have access to the powder that they use.
If it came down to it, they could test the residue chemically to determine if it was a reload or a factory load.
I know this because I had a friend recently that blew up his glock with a double load. He was OK, but when it came time to send the gun in for repairs (more like replace in this case), they tested the gun. They do this for warrantee purposes. If there were reloads used, warrantee would not cover the gun.
-George
jglsprings
New member
Oh, what was the name of the guy in Arizona that shot another fellow in self defense... I'm at work right now and can't get to the sites I need...
The D/A made a big deal about his choice of weapon and caliber (10mm Glock?) and painted the guy to be a vigilante stalking the desert. The guy's defense attorney was an idiot and failed his client. Lot's of law enforcement agencies used the weapon and cartidge combination.
Someone will come along and get this story right, or I'll put it together later...
This is the closest I can find (documented) where a D/A prosecuted the self defense shooter and made a point of the weapon and caliber. I'm sure that there are more out there. I just haven't seen them.
P.S.
Here we go... Harold Fish
Harold Fish Story...
A Google search as well.
The D/A made a big deal about his choice of weapon and caliber (10mm Glock?) and painted the guy to be a vigilante stalking the desert. The guy's defense attorney was an idiot and failed his client. Lot's of law enforcement agencies used the weapon and cartidge combination.
Someone will come along and get this story right, or I'll put it together later...
This is the closest I can find (documented) where a D/A prosecuted the self defense shooter and made a point of the weapon and caliber. I'm sure that there are more out there. I just haven't seen them.
P.S.
Here we go... Harold Fish
Harold Fish Story...
A Google search as well.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"The State police are trained to do this ^^ exactly!"
WHAT state police are "trained" to do the Mozambique drill?
I find this to be VERY suspect.
I'm more than passingly familiar with the training regimes for two state police forces, and neither has ever taught head shots, much less teaching a 2-1 combo.
WHAT state police are "trained" to do the Mozambique drill?
I find this to be VERY suspect.
I'm more than passingly familiar with the training regimes for two state police forces, and neither has ever taught head shots, much less teaching a 2-1 combo.
Major Beef
New member
I'm fascinated by these types of topic dealing with how something appears to the police, DA & jurors when you defend yourself. Wouldn't reading these threads be enough evidence to show that you're a trigger-happy crazy gun nut looking for ways to beat the jury? 
OldMarksman
Staff
There is no significant likelihood that the use of reloads in a shooting will, in and of itself, influence what happens after a shooing.
Combined with other facts, evidence of an intent to use extremely lethal ammunition, factory or hand loaded, could be used to develop an indication of state of mind, should there be any question about the "why" of the shooting.
More importantly, though, (1) if there is a shooting in which the evidence is unclear or contradictory, and (2) if the absence of gunshot residue on the person shot is used by the state as an indication either that (a) the actor's account is not credible or (b) that the shooting distance indicates against the existence of imminent danger, or both, and (3) if the rounds used would not have left GSR at the distance claimed by the actor while many others would, it would certainly benefit the actor to be able to introduce GSR tests of the ammunition used.
Due to court rulings associated with the admissibility of scientific trace evidence, it would be far better for the defendant to have used factory loads under such circumstances.
How likely? Well, there aren't very many SD shootings, to start with. If there is one inside your home, distance will most probably not be an issue.
But--go outside, shoot someone when there may be no witnesses, or just witnesses sympathetic to the person you shot, end up in a your-word-against-his-or-theirs situation, and end up dependent on your ability to show that GSR would not have been expected from your ammunition, and it's an issue.
At that point there will have been no advantage to not having used factory loads, and perhaps a very big disadvantage.
As for asking whether "anyone here" has "had the misfortune"-- realize that few have shot anyone, but if they have and if they have not yet been acquitted in a trial court and have if they do not have a strong basis to not risk a civil claim, they will have been responsibly advised to not talk about it to anyone.
Combined with other facts, evidence of an intent to use extremely lethal ammunition, factory or hand loaded, could be used to develop an indication of state of mind, should there be any question about the "why" of the shooting.
More importantly, though, (1) if there is a shooting in which the evidence is unclear or contradictory, and (2) if the absence of gunshot residue on the person shot is used by the state as an indication either that (a) the actor's account is not credible or (b) that the shooting distance indicates against the existence of imminent danger, or both, and (3) if the rounds used would not have left GSR at the distance claimed by the actor while many others would, it would certainly benefit the actor to be able to introduce GSR tests of the ammunition used.
Due to court rulings associated with the admissibility of scientific trace evidence, it would be far better for the defendant to have used factory loads under such circumstances.
How likely? Well, there aren't very many SD shootings, to start with. If there is one inside your home, distance will most probably not be an issue.
But--go outside, shoot someone when there may be no witnesses, or just witnesses sympathetic to the person you shot, end up in a your-word-against-his-or-theirs situation, and end up dependent on your ability to show that GSR would not have been expected from your ammunition, and it's an issue.
At that point there will have been no advantage to not having used factory loads, and perhaps a very big disadvantage.
As for asking whether "anyone here" has "had the misfortune"-- realize that few have shot anyone, but if they have and if they have not yet been acquitted in a trial court and have if they do not have a strong basis to not risk a civil claim, they will have been responsibly advised to not talk about it to anyone.
I don't know much about the Mozambique drill, but I do know for a fact that the Anchorage Police Dept. and Alaska State Troopers teach FAILURE TO STOP DRILLS, which consist of TWO IN THE BODY, ONE IN THE HEAD.
Not only did we train in FTS drills, but it was part of our qualification course.
Having several family members in Law Enforcement (in both VA and NY), I've always been told that police are trained to shoot in the chest (aka center of mass). This is mainly due to the crushing blow (and stopping power) a bullet has when piercing someone's chest cavity; it's like having the wind knocked out of you 100x over. Chest shots are often fatal because many pierce the pericardium or the heart, or the lungs, which causes quick death. A shot to the head is not reliable, the head is a much harder target to hit (especially from more than 20 ft. away). Accuracy goes WAY down when the adrenaline is rushing and the nerves are on edge in a serious attack, the untrained often aren't even thinking straight and have no chance of hitting the broad side of a barn in a deadly attack. In a life and death situation, the chest is the best and easiest target to hit. The 2-1 combo has "Hollywood" written all over it.
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Wow arguing over the same thing! The following is a definition that I found...
The Mozambique Drill, also known as the Failure to Stop Drill, or Failure Drill, is a close-quarter shooting technique in which the shooter fires twice into the torso of a target (known as a double tap to the center of mass) momentarily assesses the hits, then follows them up with a carefully aimed shot to the head of the target.
The third shot should be aimed to destroy the brain or, for a more immediate effect, the brain stem, killing the target and preventing the target from retaliating. The drill was added to the modern technique of gunfighting by Jeff Cooper based on the experience of one of his students, Mike Rousseau, while on duty in Mozambique. Rousseau was later killed in action in the Rhodesian War.
Goatwhiskers
New member
Then there's always the story I read some time back where one of New York's finest was being investigated by internal affairs for shooting one of the street goblins six times--in the head! What the heck was he doing after the first shot to need 5 more. Never heard the outcome. Goatwhiskers
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