Turk Mauser type 1938 Ankara

G

Gator Weiss

New member
My turk is in original condition, long, 98 action with T-Bolt, very same or similar to the WW1 version of the German 98 Mauser. I like original mode shooters. I won't cut or change one unless I have bought a rifle that had already been cut or changed. My problem with my turk is when I set the rear sight to the lowest settings, the view is actually blocked by the top wood. I bought top wood from two different vendors on EBay said to be for 1938 Turk in order to sand down so I wouldn't alter my original wood, and neither fits. Does anyone know of a source for the top wood / hand guards that will actually and truly fit.my 1938 Turk ????
 
The problem is that there is really no such thing as a 1938 Turkish rifle. That designation was given by the Turks to a variety of rifles of different ages that were upgraded to the general appearance of the German K.98k. The original markings were scrubbed (Turkey never made Mauser receivers) and restamped with Turkish markings, and the stocks and handguards replaced or modified to give a more modern appearance.

The result is that you might have to identify the original rifle or try various handguards until you find one that will fit properly. Trying to find one for a Turkish Model 1938 might be an exercise in futility.

Jim
 
Just a question, does your top wood have an extension that slides under a ring in the front of the receiver? Also you can take the barreled action out of the stock and look at/measure the receiver. If it is in fact a 38 Ankara, it will have the extra metal at the front of the receiver which makes it longer than a standard 98 mauser receiver. This ring was specifically designed for the top handgaurd to slide into to help hold it. This could be why the others won't fit, they are either for the 38s that were just cobbled together from other rifles, or they're just sending you regular 98 style handgaurds. I know it's said all the time, but you might try numrich and see if they have what you need.
 
Can't help with the sight setting. Used to have a big box full of stocks/handguards from Turk rifles I'd stripped for actions. Don't know where in all the mess those might be. If I get a chance, I'll look for them. If your rifle is a real Turk 38 it will have the HG lip on the front of the action.
 
James K, do you have definitive proof that the K.Kale marked large ring/small shank receivers were not made in Turkey? Such as a manufacturing contract with another country or corporation?

Jimro
 
I got some 1938 Turkish Mausers in Dec 1999 from BIG5 Sporting Goods Store for $50 + $4 sales tax.
I have bent the bolt on 3 of them.
I have rebarreled one to 243.
I have one still original.
Unlike the 1903 Turks, they can be converted to 3.34" cartridge length and still have the small threads.

https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/turkishmausers.pdf
 

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Jimro-

In Ludwig Olson's Mauser Bolt Rifles book, he talks specifically about the Turkish large ring on page 140. It says that 200k of these rifles were built for Turkey by the Oberndorf factory from 1903 to 1905. They were originally made in 7.65 caliber but many were converted to 8mm in the late 30's and given the model 38 designation.

I could not find any references in his book to any Mauser rifles made in Turkish arms factories, but that doesn't mean there aren't any, it just means I couldn't find them.

I have a few sporters built on turk receivers. One has a Swedish 6.5x55 barrel screwed onto it. They are an odd duck all the way around with the large ring and small threads and the extra arm of metal on the bolt stop to hold in the stripper clip. I don't advocate molesting original rifles to make sporters, but I don't mind working with turks when they have already been molested, although they seem to need more clean-up work to the metal than many of the others I've worked with.

Hope this helps.
 
http://www.turkmauser.com/1938/

Not sure why but I had rather post a link then allow the OP to decide for themselves. Then there are links inside of the link, something like an Ed and Johnny routine: "EVERYTHING you ever wanted to know about" the Turks and their Mauser.

F. Guffey
 
I don't mind working with turks when they have already been molested, although they seem to need more clean-up work to the metal than many of the others I've worked with.
Click to expand...



I don't advocate molesting original rifles to make sporters,
Click to expand...

All I need is for someone to tell me 'it is not worth anything because one of the serial numbers does not match". And if your rifle has a high hump it is not a Model 38, it is the 1903.

http://www.turkmauser.com/03/

F. Guffey
 
Then there is the undercut receiver, the front of the receiver ring was cut to hold the top wood. The ATF models were large ring large shank. Some Model 38s were scrubbed large ring/large shank receivers, reminds me of a box of chocolate.

F. Guffey

Forgive,

Does anyone know of a source for the top wood / hand guards that will actually and truly fit.my 1938 Turk ????
Click to expand...

"actually and truly fit" ? A friend builds 20 at a time, when he starts he calls and ask me what I am working on, his intension is to throw any thing I am doing in with his. He is cutting up stocks to restore to full length, something like restoring a 'DUFFEL' cut stock for the next gun show. There are times when he is limited on space he will haul a barrel of stocks and parts to another friend that has a gun parts store.

F. Guffey
 
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If lover reciver was not made in Turkey you can not put this rifle built in Turkey!
On the other hand I saw the Ankara and Kirikkale factoryies my self I saw the old machineries they use to built Mavzers (1975) They were bilding snippers rofle and at The Kirikkale factoery they were manufacturered G-3 ,MP-5 , MG-3
Under HK licence from scracth! Yes I saw old Krupp machine which were pressing the mavzer recivers..
 
I dont care where it was built. I like it. I dont alter old guns, either. This 38 Ankara I call a 38 Turk in my lingo simply because it has Turk markings and is a 38 in 8mm Mauser. It looks like the old WW-1 Mauser 98, is longer than the 98K just as the old pattern 98 is, and most probably was "born" made in Germany before it came to be "Turked." I like it, will never cut on it. Thats why I am trying to find out more about original wood. I have an Oberndorf 98K I really like too and I have some other Mausers. I like any and all old guns and Mauser is the old guns I really really like. Everyone here on this particular website are always willing to share and help a fellow gun buff. I really like this site and I thank everyone for the information they gave me.
 
Jimro asked, "James K, do you have definitive proof that the K.Kale marked large ring/small shank receivers were not made in Turkey? Such as a manufacturing contract with another country or corporation?"

I have done a fair amount of research on that issue and cannot find any indication that Turkey ever obtained the necessary tooling and machinery to manufacture complete Mauser rifles or receivers. The contracts with European firms are well documented, but the deliveries were always of complete rifles, not receivers or the tools to make them. The Turks did make barrels, and some other parts, but AFAIK never receivers.

To reverse the question, are you aware of any actual production of such receivers in Turkey, either by the government arsenal (ASFA) or by private firms? All the ones I have seen were clearly refurbished, with the original markings removed and new ones put on.

Jim
 
James K,

No, I emailed the factory in Kirikale asking for any historical records for any evidence of Mauser reciever manufacturing on site but haven't heard back, probably never will.

However I also have no records of any other European manufacturer adding in a custom Large Ring Small Shank action in the mid 1940s when their rifle production was dedicated to fighting WWII for the K.Kale marked actions. The reworked Gew98s are all standard large ring. As far as I know, Turkey was the only user of large ring small shank receivers with a built in handguard retaining ring.

I can't prove they were made in Turkey, but I can't disprove they weren't. So without proof either way it's irritating.

Jimro
 
To clarify a bit. In the late 1930's, Turkey realized war was coming and was not sure it could remain neutral. So it decided to upgrade its huge stock of miscellaneous rifles, mostly acquired from Germany, ranging from the 7.65mm Model 1890 to late Model 1898's. New rifles could not be obtained from Europe, even if the Turks had been able to afford them in the middle of a depression.

Turkey had long been under German military influence, so the pattern chosen was the "latest and greatest" German rifle, the K.98k. Old rifles were rebuilt to at least resemble that rifle, and they were converted to the standard German 7.9 as necessary. So they "scrubbed" all those old rifles, and restamped them with Turkish markings and the date they were rebuilt. Those rifles were all called the Model 1938 regardless of the date any given rifle was originally made.

With the large array of types and models that Turkey had acquired, and which were subsequently called the "Model 1938", there is naturally a lot of confusion surrounding that term.

So Turkey did not completely make or import new rifles in that period; they rebuilt and modernized some of the millions of rifles they already had.

Jim
 
James K, that is true, but all previous Large Ring Mauser's the Turks had were either 1903 pattern with a real large ring, or converted Gew98 or CZs with standard large rings.

The large ring M98 that accepted small ring barrels is not found in the previous inventory of rifles used by Turkey, at least not that I can find. Logically they couldn't have been "remanufactured" to the 38 pattern if they weren't in the inventory before. At some point in the middle of WWII someone created new actions, Large Ring/Small Shank either in Turkey or for Turkey.

The question of whether those large ring/small shank actions were made in Turkey or not is what I'm looking for evidence for. A guy who goes by the handle "DocAV" has come to the conclusion that they were domestic manufacture and posted that conclusion on a number of milsurp boards, but he doesn't have documents to prove it.

Which is why I'm trying to find someone with definitive proof one way or the other.

Jimro
 
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