Trying to understand Florida bill 169

speedrrracer

New member
If it has been discussed, I couldn't find the discussion -- please point me there.

The specific portion I can't un-wrangle into digestible bits is 776.032 (and it's sad because the entire text of the bill isn't much longer than this post):

Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil
action for justifiable use or threatened use of force.—
(1) The Legislature finds that imposing the burden of
proof on a person who uses or threatens to use defensive force
as permitted by general law at a pretrial evidentiary hearing
substantially curtails the benefit of the immunity from trial
provided by this section. The Legislature intends to make it
explicit that the state shall bear the burden of proof in
establishing beyond a reasonable doubt whether a defendant is
entitled to immunity at a pretrial evidentiary hearing in order
to disprove a prima facie claim of self-defense immunity. The
Legislature has never intended that a person who acts in defense
of self, others, or property be denied immunity and subjected to
trial when that person would be entitled to acquittal at trial.
The amendments to this section made by this act are intended to
correct misinterpretations of legislative intent made by the
courts and shall apply retroactively to proceedings pending at
the time this act becomes a law.

Is the legislature saying, "The real trial will now be the pretrial evidentiary hearing"? :confused:

Thanks for any clarity :)
 
It was intended to be that the burden was on the DAs office regarding a "stand your ground" scenario; but supposedly, the original wording was such that the burden fell on you to prove it was a SYG scenario and your use of deadly force was justified. The clarification is, from what I gather, an attempt tp explicitly lay the burden of proof back onto the DA.
 
Let's see if I can make a decent translation:

Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use or threatened use of force.—
(1) The Legislature finds that imposing the burden of proof on a person who uses or threatens to use defensive force as permitted by general law at a pretrial evidentiary hearing substantially curtails the benefit of the immunity from trial provided by this section.

It's not fair to put the burden of proof on the guy who defended himself.

The Legislature intends to make it explicit that the state shall bear the burden of proof in establishing beyond a reasonable doubt whether a defendant is entitled to immunity at a pretrial evidentiary hearing in order to disprove a prima facie claim of self-defense immunity.

The state has to bear the burden of proof that the guy who defended himself didn't do it in self-defense.

The Legislature has never intended that a person who acts in defense of self, others, or property be denied immunity and subjected to trial when that person would be entitled to acquittal at trial. The amendments to this section made by this act are intended to correct misinterpretations of legislative intent made by the courts and shall apply retroactively to proceedings pending at the time this act becomes a law.

There's no point in having a trial if the guy who defended himself is going to be acquitted anyway. That's what we (the legislature) meant in the first place and now we're making it explicit enough that not even the courts can misinterpret it.
 
speedrrracer said:
If it has been discussed, I couldn't find the discussion -- please point me there.

The specific portion I can't un-wrangle into digestible bits is 776.032 (and it's sad because the entire text of the bill isn't much longer than this post):...
It's actually pretty much meaningless. The reality is that however things are set up, if will be up to the defendant who claims self defense to produce evidence stating a prima facie (on its face) case of self defense. The reason the language you quoted is so hard to understand is that it's a clear case of "you can't get there from here", but whoever drafted the language is trying to obfuscate that simple reality.

Every Immunity Law/Stand Your Ground Law/Castle Doctrine Law sets out various conditions that must be satisfied in order for immunity to attach or justification to be found. If there is a dispute about whether those conditions have been satisfied, you'll necessarily wind up in court to work that out.

Florida law provides for immunity from criminal prosecution and from civil suit for someone who uses force in justified self defense. See 776.032:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection

The difficulty is that there will always be some threshold questions to be decided before it can be determined whether or not immunity applies. Immunity only applies when the use of force meets all the legal requirements for justification.

In Florida, as provided under 776.032, that would mean that the defendant's use of force was, "...as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031..."; and each of those statutes has conditions that must be satisfied for there to be a finding of justification. If the DA agrees that someone's use of force was justified, that would resolve at least the criminal side of things.

Issues, however, arise when the DA thinks someone's use of force was not justified. If there is that fundamental disagreement, there needs to be a way to resolve it. Ordinarily, that would be done at a trial. Florida has established a slightly different procedure.

In Dennis v. State, 51 So.3d 456 (Fla., 2010), the Supreme Court of Florida ruled:
We conclude that where a criminal defendant files a motion to dismiss on the basis of section 776.032, the trial court should decide the factual question of the applicability of the statutory immunity. ... and [we] approve the reasoning of Peterson on that issue.
And in Peterson v. State, 983 So.2d 27 (Fla. App., 2008), referred to by the Florida Supreme Court, the appellate court ruled:
Petitioner seeks a writ of prohibition to review an order denying his motion to dismiss based on the statutory immunity established by section 776.032(1), Florida Statutes (2006). We deny the petition and hold that a criminal defendant claiming protection under the statute must demonstrate by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she is immunized from prosecution...

Based on these seminal Florida court decisions, if a defendant is charged with a crime (or, it would appear, sued) based on a use of force, and if the defendant claims justification as his defense, instead of raising self defense as an affirmative defense at trial --

  1. The defendant would raise his defense in a motion to dismiss based on the immunity provided under 776.032; and

  2. The court would hold an evidentiary hearing on the motion; and

  3. The defendant at that hearing would need to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that each element required for legal justification has been satisfied.

  4. Should the court deny the motion, it appears from certain language in Peterson that he would still be able to raise self defense as an affirmative defense at trial.

It's hard to imagine how it might realistically work any other way. I suspect this bill won't be getting anywhere.
 
"It's hard to imagine how it might realistically work any other way. I suspect this bill won't be getting anywhere." Frank Ettin

What if at the prelim a shooter need not

1. Prove it more likely than not that the shooting was justified,

2. If they offer enough evidence that a reasonable juror could find justification, then the a presumption of immunity arises, and

3. For the prosecution to refute the presumption, it must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no justification.
 
How is:
Dreaming100Straight said:
...enough evidence that a reasonable juror could find justification,...
different from:
Dreaming100Straight said:
...more likely than not...
different from:
...a preponderance of the evidence...
and how have courts articulated the differences?

The thing is that the courts recognize and have articulated four evidentiary standards:

  1. Prima facie:
    ...Latin for "at first look," or "on its face," referring to a lawsuit or criminal prosecution in which the evidence before trial is sufficient to prove the case unless there is substantial contradictory evidence presented at trial....

  2. Preponderance of the evidence:
    ...the greater weight of the evidence required in a civil (non-criminal) lawsuit for the trier of fact (jury or judge without a jury) to decide in favor of one side or the other. This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence....

  3. clear and convincing evidence:
    ...evidence that proves a matter by the "preponderance of evidence" required in civil cases and beyond the "reasonable doubt" needed to convict in a criminal case....

  4. beyond a reasonable doubt:
    ...part of jury instructions in all criminal trials, in which the jurors are told that they can only find the defendant guilty if they are convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" of his or her guilt. Sometimes referred to as "to a moral certainty,"....

But these standards really can't be measured to any degree of mathematical certainty. Rather they can help focus the thinking of the trier of fact (whether the judge or jury) on the issue of whether a party having a burden has met that burden in light of the evidence presented by the other side. So the evidentiary standard you must meet is a rough, qualitative evaluation of how convincing you have to be. But the less convincing you are, the easier it will be for the other side to overcome your claim to its requisite evidentiary standard.

Remember also that the point of the streamlining of procedure outlines by the Florida Supreme Court in Dennis v. State, 51 So.3d 456 (Fla., 2010) is to decide at an abbreviated evidentiary hearing before trial whether the defendant's self defense claim is sufficiently strong to make a full scale trial a waste of time.

As the Florida Supreme Court described the issue in Dennis (at 462 -- 463):
...While Florida law has long recognized that a defendant may argue as an affirmative defense at trial that his or her use of force was legally justified, section 776.032 contemplates that a defendant who establishes entitlement to the statutory immunity will not be subjected to trial. Section 776.032(1) expressly grants defendants a substantive right to not be arrested, detained, charged, or prosecuted as a result of the use of legally justified force. The statute does not merely provide that a defendant cannot be convicted as a result of legally justified force.

This plain reading of section 776.032 compels us to reject the State's contention that a defendant must raise a pretrial claim of immunity only in a rule 3.190(c)(4) motion to dismiss. To be entitled to dismissal under rule 3.190(c)(4), "the defendant must 'demonstrate that the undisputed facts fail to establish a prima facie case.' " Dorelus v. State, 747 So.2d 368, 373 (Fla.1999) (quoting State v. Pollock, 600 So.2d 1313, 1314 (Fla. 3d DCA 1992)). If the State specifically alleges that the material facts are in dispute or that the facts refute the defendant's claim, the motion to dismiss must be denied. State v. Kalogeropolous, 758 So.2d 110, 112 (Fla.2000). Section 776.032 does not limit its grant of immunity to cases where the material facts are undisputed. Thus, treating motions to dismiss pursuant to section 776.032 in the same manner as rule 3.190(c)(4) motions would not provide criminal defendants the opportunity to establish immunity and avoid trial that was contemplated by the Legislature.

Florida Rule of Criminal Procedure 3.190(b)—rather than rule 3.190(c)(4)—provides the appropriate procedural vehicle for the consideration of a claim of section 776.032 immunity. Rule 3.190(b) provides generally that "[a]ll defenses available to a defendant by plea, other than not guilty, shall be made only by motion to dismiss the indictment or information." Dennis's failure to identify the pertinent subdivision of rule 3.190 in his motions to dismiss did not foreclose Dennis's argument that section 776.032 required the trial court to make a pretrial evidentiary determination concerning the applicability of the statutory immunity. See, e.g., Steinhorst v. State, 636 So.2d 498, 500 (Fla.1994) (concluding that trial court should have treated criminal defendant's motion, improperly designated as being filed pursuant to Florida Rule of Civil Procedure 1.540, as being properly filed pursuant to Florida Rule of Criminal Procedure 3.850); cf. Barrett v. State, 965 So.2d 1260, 1261 (Fla. 2d DCA 2007) ("Article V, section 2(a) of the Florida Constitution requires that no cause be dismissed because an improper remedy has been sought. Accordingly, the trial court should have considered whether Barrett had alleged sufficient facts to warrant relief and, if so, treated his motion as if the proper remedy had been sought.").

The Florida appellate courts have interpreted rule 3.190—in a variety of contexts—as granting trial courts authority to receive evidence to assist in ruling on motions to dismiss. For example, the appellate courts have approved the trial courts' use of evidentiary hearings to rule on motions to dismiss on the basis of transactional or use immunity, prosecutorial misconduct, and selective prosecution. See, e.g., State ex rel. Hough v. Popper, 287 So.2d 282, 285 (Fla.1973) (issuing writ to compel trial court to hold an evidentiary hearing to determine if the transactional immunity or use immunity provisions of section 914.04, Florida Statutes, were applicable); Owen v. State, 443 So.2d 173, 175 (Fla. 1st DCA 1983) (holding that trial court had discretion to conduct an evidentiary hearing on a motion to dismiss alleging prosecutorial misconduct and selective prosecution); State v. Yatman, 320 So.2d 401, 402 (Fla. 4th DCA 1975) (directing trial court to allow defendant to file a written motion to dismiss and to "hold a hearing to determine the issues created by said motion").

We also reject the State's contention that the pretrial hearing on immunity in a criminal case should test merely whether the State has probable cause to believe the defendant's use of force was not legally justified. Prior to the enactment of chapter 2005-27, Laws of Florida (2005), Florida law defined certain types of justified force, see §§ 776.12, 776.031, Fla. Stat. (2004), and the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure mandated that a trial judge make a pretrial nonadversarial probable cause determination either before or shortly after a defendant was taken into custody, see Fla. R.Crim. P. 3.133 (2004). "It is a basic rule of statutory construction that 'the Legislature does not intend to enact useless provisions, and courts should avoid readings that would render part of a statute meaningless.' " Martinez v. State, 981 So.2d 449, 452 (Fla.2008) (quoting State v. Bodden, 877 So.2d 680, 686 (Fla.2004)). Accordingly, the grant of immunity from "criminal prosecution" in section 776.032 must be interpreted in a manner that provides the defendant with more protection from prosecution for a justified use of force than the probable cause determination previously provided to the defendant by rule.....
 
Pretty convinced that clear and convincing evidence is needn't prove a matter as rigorously as beyond a shadow of a doubt. LLI seems to agree:

A medium level of burden of proof which is a more rigorous standard to meet than the preponderance of the evidence standard, but a less rigorous standard to meet than proving evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. In order to meet the standard and prove something by clear and convincing evidence, a party must prove that it is substantially more likely than not that it is true. This standard is employed in both civil and criminal trials.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/clear_and_convincing_evidence
 
I agree that's a clearer definition of "clear and convincing" than the definition from Law.com.

Still those are the recognized evidentiary standards.
 
Those are the standards but law.com's definition of the clear and convincing standard wrongly provides that it is beyond a reasonable doubt. It is less than the criminal standard.
 
Dreaming100Straight said:
Those are the standards but law.com's definition of the clear and convincing standard wrongly provides that it is beyond a reasonable doubt. It is less than the criminal standard.
That's not completely accurate, but it's also completely irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

Do you have anything substantive to add to the discussion of the pending Florida legislation which is the subject of this thread?
 
It did make it out of the initial committee, but there are more roads to travel before it gets to a vote, let alone the Rick Scott's desk for signature.
 
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