I have been reloading for about a year using both Titegroup and Bullseye for 9mm. I use the Lee Pro Autodisk powder drop system on the Lee turret press. The disk setting I have always used for Bullseye has been the #46, for a consistant drop of 4.1 or 4.2 grains of powder. I just finished a 1 lb container of Bullseye and opened a new one. Using the same disk setting I have always used, the new powder is now dropping 4.4 or 4.5 grains! Maximum load with a 124 grain bullet is 4.4 grains! Has this happened to anyone else?? I have checked everything I can think of but can't come up with an explanation other than an inconsistancy in the powder manufacturing process. I changed disks and powder to the Titegroup to check if it was maybe my powder drop system, but my drops were 3.9 - 4.0 as always with the #34 disk. Does anyone have any ideas on this???? I know I can change to a 115 grain bullet or drop back a size on my disk and live with it BUT I would really like to know what is going on here.
Trouble with Bullseye powder drop.
- Thread starter RickCoop
- Start date
Similar experience
I started loading 30 years ago with a Lil Dandy and Bullseye (when it was mfr'd by Hercules Powder Company). Back then, I had the old-style RCBS scale with a sliding weight. When I started reloading again this year, I bought a new digital scale (mfr'd by Franklin Arsenal) and also bought a new 1# container of Bullseye (now mfr'd by Alliant).
My #7 rotor always measured 4.0 grains of Bullseye on the old scale. Now it measures 4.2 grains on my new scale (mfr'd by Franklin Arsenal). My #8 rotor used to measure 4.5 grains and now it measures 4.7 grains. My #3 rotor used to measure 3.0 grains and now it measures 3.2 grains. I just bought a #6 rotor which is supposed to measure 3.5 grains and it measures 3.7 grains. I believe my digital scale is accurate, at least according to the calibration weights which came with it. I looked at the rotors and do not see any wear which might explain additional powder dropping. It makes sense that a different lot of powder could make a slight difference in weight, but +/- 0.2 grains seems like a lot because that equates to a maximum of 6.66% deviation according to me math and experience. Just bought a container of TiteGroup and again, the actual measurements are 0.1 - 0.2 grains more than the RCBS chart for the particular rotor.
I suggest periodically checking it. As I have read elsewhere in this Forum, 0.2 grains may not make much difference as far as accuracy. Can't necessarily say the same is true if you reload anywhere close to maximum pressures.
I started loading 30 years ago with a Lil Dandy and Bullseye (when it was mfr'd by Hercules Powder Company). Back then, I had the old-style RCBS scale with a sliding weight. When I started reloading again this year, I bought a new digital scale (mfr'd by Franklin Arsenal) and also bought a new 1# container of Bullseye (now mfr'd by Alliant).
My #7 rotor always measured 4.0 grains of Bullseye on the old scale. Now it measures 4.2 grains on my new scale (mfr'd by Franklin Arsenal). My #8 rotor used to measure 4.5 grains and now it measures 4.7 grains. My #3 rotor used to measure 3.0 grains and now it measures 3.2 grains. I just bought a #6 rotor which is supposed to measure 3.5 grains and it measures 3.7 grains. I believe my digital scale is accurate, at least according to the calibration weights which came with it. I looked at the rotors and do not see any wear which might explain additional powder dropping. It makes sense that a different lot of powder could make a slight difference in weight, but +/- 0.2 grains seems like a lot because that equates to a maximum of 6.66% deviation according to me math and experience. Just bought a container of TiteGroup and again, the actual measurements are 0.1 - 0.2 grains more than the RCBS chart for the particular rotor.
I suggest periodically checking it. As I have read elsewhere in this Forum, 0.2 grains may not make much difference as far as accuracy. Can't necessarily say the same is true if you reload anywhere close to maximum pressures.
Similar experience too
About a month ago, I had the same experience with W296. But it may be apples n oranges . . .
My "old" W296 was made in 1987, and my "new" W296 was made in 2012. But the same volume that dropped 22.5 grains of the old, dropped 23.2 grains of the new. I decided to just stop at that point and load only with the old powder. The new powder was also darker in color, if memory serves. (BTW, the old powder has been stored in ideal conditions, smells fine, and shoots fine - there's nothing wrong with it, in spite of its age.)
I'm going to start my load work ups anew (only three recipes - I don't use W296 much), since the two powders are so different in age, appearance, and density. AFAIC, they're two different powders.
About a month ago, I had the same experience with W296. But it may be apples n oranges . . .
My "old" W296 was made in 1987, and my "new" W296 was made in 2012. But the same volume that dropped 22.5 grains of the old, dropped 23.2 grains of the new. I decided to just stop at that point and load only with the old powder. The new powder was also darker in color, if memory serves. (BTW, the old powder has been stored in ideal conditions, smells fine, and shoots fine - there's nothing wrong with it, in spite of its age.)
I'm going to start my load work ups anew (only three recipes - I don't use W296 much), since the two powders are so different in age, appearance, and density. AFAIC, they're two different powders.
I had an almost exact issue and posted to get feedback. I used to use Bullseye with my Lee Pro Press for my 45 ACP and it was great! I ran out and bought some more Bullseye and wham, I couldn't get consistent powder drops no mater what powder measure I used (fixed disc or variable). I finally got a response from a couple powder dealers at a Gun Show that Lee doesn't recommend Bullseye. First I heard of it but I did get a different brand and no more issues. I tried the Bullseye again and had issues so now I have a few pounds of Bullseye sitting on my reloading bench ... Bummer 
mikejonestkd
New member
That's the first I have ever heard of that. Bullseye runs just fine through my Lee pro auto disk and my PPM.
To the OP, I have found a small variation with thrown charges between powder lots, which is why you should always back off your loads a bit when breaking open a new can.
additional thought
One thing which I noticed for all types of powders which I purchased long ago and again recently is that vibration or tapping on the powder dropper definitely compacts the powder. After loading the powder dropper, I tap on it a few times and I try to use the same amount of force when rotating the rotor to the load and dispense positions which is similar to tapping it. I use a single stage press, so I manually drop powder into each case. The thought about further compacting powder also crossed my mine when I pause the powder dropping to seat and crimp some bullets. The vibration on my removable loading table probably causes the powder to compact more. I could easily see this adding a few tenths to the amount of powder being dispensed. My goal is to "reasonably compact" the powder with light to medium tapping on the dispenser to make it consistent. Since I am nowhere near maximum loads, a few extra tenths don't affect my loads as long as they are consistent which leads to accuracy.
One thing which I noticed for all types of powders which I purchased long ago and again recently is that vibration or tapping on the powder dropper definitely compacts the powder. After loading the powder dropper, I tap on it a few times and I try to use the same amount of force when rotating the rotor to the load and dispense positions which is similar to tapping it. I use a single stage press, so I manually drop powder into each case. The thought about further compacting powder also crossed my mine when I pause the powder dropping to seat and crimp some bullets. The vibration on my removable loading table probably causes the powder to compact more. I could easily see this adding a few tenths to the amount of powder being dispensed. My goal is to "reasonably compact" the powder with light to medium tapping on the dispenser to make it consistent. Since I am nowhere near maximum loads, a few extra tenths don't affect my loads as long as they are consistent which leads to accuracy.
That varies with the powder. Stick powders can compact a lot, but true sphericals, like H380, change very little as they tend to roll into minimum bulk automatically. This is why sphercial propellants meter more consistently in any measure.
That bulk density changes with powder lots is nothing new. It's the reason weight rather than volume is the standard manual load data, Lee's VMD's notwithstanding. Weight can err due to water content by around 3% equivalent powder charge variance, but volume, as you've seen, can vary by three times that, so it's a less reliable starting point than weight.
Transportation subjects powder to vibration. The late Dan Hackett reported having a load that worked fine when he loaded it at home, but that caused sticky bolt lift when he loaded it at the range. It needed that transport vibration on the way from home to the range to pack it enough to slow its flame front propagation enough to produce a safe pressure.
The good news is that packing does slow burn rate, so the error isn't 100% equivalent to the weight difference. But now you know why the standard advice with a new lot of powder is to drop your charge weight 10% and load a round at that 90% of charge weight, then one at 92%, 94%, 96%, 98% and back to 100%. One round at each level is enough to you see any really obvious pressure signs, so this is only 6 rounds altogether to stay safe. Well worth it.
A chronograph is also useful. Keep aside a few rounds with the old powder lot and compare their average velocity with what the new lot under the same conditions and tune the new lot to get to the same velocity. That's almost always safe because the powders, despite being different lots, have the same characteristic curve shapes. It is unsafe to try matching velocities with different types of powder. It is unsafe to use past measurements to compare if they were shot under different conditions. That's why you keep a little of the old powder around.
You may find (50-50 chance) that your new lot is slower and lower pressure. You can still safely work up to a matching velocity with it under those matching conditions. Again, it just won't fly with a different powder type than your original type. I would also not trust it if I knew the powder formulation had changed, as was announced a couple of years ago with Accurate Nitro 100.
That bulk density changes with powder lots is nothing new. It's the reason weight rather than volume is the standard manual load data, Lee's VMD's notwithstanding. Weight can err due to water content by around 3% equivalent powder charge variance, but volume, as you've seen, can vary by three times that, so it's a less reliable starting point than weight.
Transportation subjects powder to vibration. The late Dan Hackett reported having a load that worked fine when he loaded it at home, but that caused sticky bolt lift when he loaded it at the range. It needed that transport vibration on the way from home to the range to pack it enough to slow its flame front propagation enough to produce a safe pressure.
The good news is that packing does slow burn rate, so the error isn't 100% equivalent to the weight difference. But now you know why the standard advice with a new lot of powder is to drop your charge weight 10% and load a round at that 90% of charge weight, then one at 92%, 94%, 96%, 98% and back to 100%. One round at each level is enough to you see any really obvious pressure signs, so this is only 6 rounds altogether to stay safe. Well worth it.
A chronograph is also useful. Keep aside a few rounds with the old powder lot and compare their average velocity with what the new lot under the same conditions and tune the new lot to get to the same velocity. That's almost always safe because the powders, despite being different lots, have the same characteristic curve shapes. It is unsafe to try matching velocities with different types of powder. It is unsafe to use past measurements to compare if they were shot under different conditions. That's why you keep a little of the old powder around.
You may find (50-50 chance) that your new lot is slower and lower pressure. You can still safely work up to a matching velocity with it under those matching conditions. Again, it just won't fly with a different powder type than your original type. I would also not trust it if I knew the powder formulation had changed, as was announced a couple of years ago with Accurate Nitro 100.
If someone of authority told me that their product will not properly meter Bullseye (and I don't know that this is the case here; and I use an RCBS Uniflow), I would not use their product. When I'm at the load bench, there's about a 70% chance Bullseye is in the hopper.
I have found that Bullseye tends to want to "hang on to itself" a little, and not quite flow as smooth as some others (Power Pistol too). Therefore, it is not a great metering powder. W231 for instance, even though it's about the same size and shape flakes, meters better - it seems to slide on itself easier, for lack of a better way to describe it. But I'm splitting hairs here. Bullseye meters plenty good for me - it's hardly even noticeable as an issue at all.
Minorcan, I'm not sure if you mean that figuratively or literally, but the only powder that should be on your load bench is the one you are currently using - and no others - ever. It's a safety issue. When there's multiple powders on the load bench, it's too easy to mistake powders and load with the wrong one; or mix powders (empty the hopper into the wrong container). Just erring on the side of caution here. All powders should be in a different location from your load bench, until use.
sghart3578
New member
If anything this should illustrate to new reloaders why double checking every step is necessary.
Volumetric density can and does change from lot to lot. When I open a new powder container I measure a few loads to get a rough idea what the VD is of that bottle. I then tape a note to the bottle reminding me. The note also serves to indicate that the seal has been broken when I run across that bottle in my powder locker.
I have some old Accurate #5 that was made in Israel. I compared it to a new 1 pounder that I bought recently. Big difference in VD.
"Measure twice, cut once."
Volumetric density can and does change from lot to lot. When I open a new powder container I measure a few loads to get a rough idea what the VD is of that bottle. I then tape a note to the bottle reminding me. The note also serves to indicate that the seal has been broken when I run across that bottle in my powder locker.
I have some old Accurate #5 that was made in Israel. I compared it to a new 1 pounder that I bought recently. Big difference in VD.
"Measure twice, cut once."
bluetopper
New member
You need to load powder by weight, not volume.
The best advice I can give you is to do away with a powder measure that loads with discs (been there, done that).
Any other powder measure on the market is better than those.
The best advice I can give you is to do away with a powder measure that loads with discs (been there, done that).
Any other powder measure on the market is better than those.