internetwarrior
Inactive
Finally tried the AR standing square thumb over barrel shooting stance, some thoughts...
ok, so first of all, let me state i have zero official tactical training. I have many "shootouts" in my 19/20 year old life with the South African "flying squad" - which is basically like a really poor swat team with no training.
So everything I learned was on the job, and lots of it by watching what went wrong with other people (them getting shot / killed etc on both sides).
anyways fast forward 20 years, I decide to go to the range here with some of associates instead of alone like i normally do.
Pretty quickly everyone is telling me i shoot old school, (including the range master), and that things have changed.
So I say I am game, what must i try do. So they show me, square up to the target, get the butt of the rifle high up in your shoulder, left hand as far forward as you can on the rifle (this is about the only part i was doing already), try get your thumb up over the top of the barrel, lift the left elbow etc. stand tall, weight forward, back bent forward, feet no more than shoulders apart.
Anyways I put about 300 rounds downrange like this to give it a try, and while it was interesting, I do not understand the purpose of it other than for range use?
Maybe it really is better? I don't know - all i am saying is to me it sure didn't seem like a good idea. Maybe someone on here can fill me in. I will summarize my "concerns"
first major concern, the balance issue of being squared up. I learned to shoot on the balls of my feet with left foot way in front. Why? this is a great position to break into a sprint, a great position to back up quick, and a great position to drop to knee for stable shots, all of those three things very quickly. Squared up puts your next step as slow, also puts you way off balance if you get blindsided in a confined space by someone running into you from the side, or grabbing your rifle as you enter a room.
second major concern, squared up you are presenting the largest possible target you can to anyone shooting at you?
third major concern, I do not believe anyone can shoot more accurately long range in this stance with this grip. so assuming engagement is over 100 meters this is a bad idea which brings me to my next point
Every drill we did in this new stance was shooting at targets that were 5 10 and 20 yards away pumping lots of rounds into them. At this distance I would much prefer a shotgun.
also the drill where you move forward all squared up shooting at the next target is the most unrealistic thing I have ever seen. If you shot the first target - well the other targets if they are armed will be shooting at you now. There is zero chance you emerge from cover, standing tall, facing square, and walk towards other armed shooters.
Half the firefights i was involved in, almost no one was even aiming, never mind standing square approaching other shooters. People just lying behind bushes emptying out a complete magazines on full auto above their heads totally blind firing, people emptying magazines around building corners without looking, people firing shots through closed doors, etc etc that is how things went down as far as I recall. I would guess for every 50 rounds fired maybe one was a hit.
And at that point moving and staying alive was key, if you managed to hit your target that was just a bonus, the primary goal was being mobile and being alive. I can clearly remember often i would be in full sprint with my rifle in only one hand, sliding behind walls, lying in ditches, smashing out windows and jumping in or out of buildings to find cover, etc etc
Anyways that was my take. Maybe I am just a washed old internet warrior at this point.
ok, so first of all, let me state i have zero official tactical training. I have many "shootouts" in my 19/20 year old life with the South African "flying squad" - which is basically like a really poor swat team with no training.
So everything I learned was on the job, and lots of it by watching what went wrong with other people (them getting shot / killed etc on both sides).
anyways fast forward 20 years, I decide to go to the range here with some of associates instead of alone like i normally do.
Pretty quickly everyone is telling me i shoot old school, (including the range master), and that things have changed.
So I say I am game, what must i try do. So they show me, square up to the target, get the butt of the rifle high up in your shoulder, left hand as far forward as you can on the rifle (this is about the only part i was doing already), try get your thumb up over the top of the barrel, lift the left elbow etc. stand tall, weight forward, back bent forward, feet no more than shoulders apart.
Anyways I put about 300 rounds downrange like this to give it a try, and while it was interesting, I do not understand the purpose of it other than for range use?
Maybe it really is better? I don't know - all i am saying is to me it sure didn't seem like a good idea. Maybe someone on here can fill me in. I will summarize my "concerns"
first major concern, the balance issue of being squared up. I learned to shoot on the balls of my feet with left foot way in front. Why? this is a great position to break into a sprint, a great position to back up quick, and a great position to drop to knee for stable shots, all of those three things very quickly. Squared up puts your next step as slow, also puts you way off balance if you get blindsided in a confined space by someone running into you from the side, or grabbing your rifle as you enter a room.
second major concern, squared up you are presenting the largest possible target you can to anyone shooting at you?
third major concern, I do not believe anyone can shoot more accurately long range in this stance with this grip. so assuming engagement is over 100 meters this is a bad idea which brings me to my next point
Every drill we did in this new stance was shooting at targets that were 5 10 and 20 yards away pumping lots of rounds into them. At this distance I would much prefer a shotgun.
also the drill where you move forward all squared up shooting at the next target is the most unrealistic thing I have ever seen. If you shot the first target - well the other targets if they are armed will be shooting at you now. There is zero chance you emerge from cover, standing tall, facing square, and walk towards other armed shooters.
Half the firefights i was involved in, almost no one was even aiming, never mind standing square approaching other shooters. People just lying behind bushes emptying out a complete magazines on full auto above their heads totally blind firing, people emptying magazines around building corners without looking, people firing shots through closed doors, etc etc that is how things went down as far as I recall. I would guess for every 50 rounds fired maybe one was a hit.
And at that point moving and staying alive was key, if you managed to hit your target that was just a bonus, the primary goal was being mobile and being alive. I can clearly remember often i would be in full sprint with my rifle in only one hand, sliding behind walls, lying in ditches, smashing out windows and jumping in or out of buildings to find cover, etc etc
Anyways that was my take. Maybe I am just a washed old internet warrior at this point.