Traveling to and around NY from NC?

[baddarryl]

Ooops. Mods please move to Law and Civil Rights if necessary.

Hi all. I will be traveling up there next week to visit family and take in the Undadilla MX! I understand the reciprocity of different states. Here is my question: if I were to spend time in NY how is the safest way to transport and/or store my pistol while there? I have relatives we will stay with, but will also travel around the state a bit. Also even though they will not be loaded, I am guessing hi capacity mags cannot be possessed so I will need 10 rounders. Thank you.

 

[Tom Servo]

The 1986 FOPA protects you if you're travelling through New York. The pistol needs to be unloaded and stored out of reach.

However, the law does not protect you if you are staying there overnight. If you do so, you could be charged for not having a pistol permit.

 

[2ndsojourn]

From the other thread re: NYC gun laws:
"You cant even bring a gun into NY state as a non resident unless you are just passing through and spending less than 24hrs there,..."

I don't know how accurate that statement is, but if true, it doesn't seem like it's worth the risk. And if you're passing through MD & NJ to get there, you have additional risk to consider. I like my guns as much as the next guy, but sometimes I think it's better to just leave it home.

 

[g.willikers]

Pretend you said Europe or Canada instead of New York and it's more on the mark.
It takes months and many hoops to jump through to be able to have a pistol, and even long guns, in NY state.
Even worse in NY City, not only for guns but most other weapons.
And some of the states near NY suffer the same - must be contagious.
Maybe you could visit via skype instead.
For much of the Northeast, the American Revolution never happened.

 

[44 AMP]

Best advice I can give , if traveling to NY, "Leave the gun, take the canoli!"...

The Federal 1986 FOPA law does protect you, to a point. The point is, you have to be travelling THROUGH the state. You are allowed to stop for gas, get a bite to eat, fix a flat, etc., but if your destination is in NY state, then no, you are not covered by the Federal law, state law has jurisdiction.

I do not believe NY recognizes any other state's permits and NYC does not even recognize NY STATE permits.

And the FOPA (assuming you were covered) does not stop you from getting arrested, having your gun confiscated, booked, and spending jail time until you make bail. AND you will have to come back to NY for your court hearing, possibly months later. It has happened.

DO NOT THINK OF TAKING A HANDGUN, or your pet tacticool AR or anything else that might remotely be thought of as an assault weapon. Your granddaddy's duck gun might be allowed, but you need to find out FIRST, and in writing, from a state official, who has the authority to make that decision.

I grew up in northern NY state. Left for good in the 1970s. The laws were bad then, and are much worse now.

Essentially, if you are physically within the borders of NY state, with a firearm, and you do not have the proper NYS paperwork for you and it, you are breaking the law. In NYC, it has to be NYC issued paperwork, or you are breaking the law. DON'T DO THAT!

ALL handguns require a permit, and NY state (and city) are not "shall issue" places, they are "may issue", which means it is entirely up to the issuing individual, and you can be denied for any, or no reason, at their whim. And that's for residents!

GOOD LUCK, hope this helps. There are "loopholes" I believe, but in general this is how it works. If you HAVE to take a gun to NY, contact a NY lawyer for advice, BEFORE you set foot in NY!

NJ, MA, and some other places in that area are very similar. One fellow, flying with guns checked as baggage, stopover in NJ. All good, until his plane had trouble, and he couldn't leave until the next day. Airline put him up in a hotel, but when he claimed his bags, he broke NJ law, and was arrested, spent a couple days in jail until his hearing, and then had to return to NJ, months later for his hearing to finally end the matter.

If you are covered by the FOPA, you will ultimately not be convicted, but that's about all. The money you have to spend, and the time taken from your life, until they officially absolve you is not something you will get back.

 

[baddarryl]

Well that settles that. As much as I don't like it will be leaving at home. Even more frustrating is my wife is an armed Fed LEO that sees no need to carry even though she can. That is something she won't bend on.

I guess I will leave this up to fate. Never moving there! Thanks all!

 

[rwilson452]

Living on the border with NYS I can tell you NY is "fork over" country. I sterilize my car before before I venture there. NYC is rabid about it.

If your wife is a Fed. LEO is is likely they won't bother her. but in NYC I would not count on it. There was a case of a PA constable that NYC busted. Eventually he was cleared by a judge but it was a big hassle.

 

[Bowdog]

I was a CCW instructor in NY until July 1 when I moved to Tennessee. If you take your gun to NY you are in violation of NY law and mandatory one year in jail.

 

[baddarryl]

I was a CCW instructor in NY until July 1 when I moved to Tennessee. If you take your gun to NY you are in violation of NY law and mandatory one year in jail.

How is that even constitutional?

 

[Tom Servo]

How is that even constitutional?

A court hasn't ruled it unconstitutional yet. As it stands right now, New York is treating FOPA as an affirmative defense. They have a record of charging and arresting first, then letting the case get thrown out. Word spreads, and soon enough people are discouraged from bringing guns into the state.

 

[db4570]

Just to correct something. Anyone can have long guns in the state, as long as it doesn't have a high-cap mag or other "assault weapon style" features. This does not apply to NYC, where, I think, you have to have a permit for everything.

Can't have a pistol without a permit.

David

 

[baddarryl]

Just got back and had a great time. Was not as uncomfortable not carrying as I I thought I would be. Sure felt good to strap it on when I got home though! I did surprisingly see a few LGS's that I thought to step in just for curiosity, but I didn't bother. Thanks guys.

 

[maestro pistolero]

FOPA protects individuals traveling through a prohibited area as long as they are legally able to possess the firearms at their point of origin AND their destination. There is no 24 rule as suggested in an earlier post. No unnecessary stops, no overnight stays, no side trip to the mall, nothing. Keep moving until free of fascist territory.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

FOPA protects individuals traveling through a prohibited area as long as they are legally able to possess the firearms at their point of origin AND their destination. There is no 24 rule as suggested in an earlier post. No unnecessary stops, no overnight stays, no side trip to the mall, nothing. Keep moving until free of fascist territory.

There is nothing in the FOPA that addresses whether or not overnight stops stays are or are not permitted/covered. As a practical matter, most reasonable people would acknowledge that it's impossible to drive coast-to-coast without stopping somewhere at least once, and more likely three to five times, for sleep. If you're stopping at an economy motel located at an Interstate highway interchange, and not doing sightseeing or visiting anyone in the area, that's certainly within the course of normal travel, which the law implies is covered.

However, I recognize that this has not been established in the courts. Some people cite the case of Gregg Revell in New Jersey as proof that overnight stops are not covered, but his case was different. First, it was in New Jersey. Second, he wasn't traveling by car, he was traveling by air. Third, he was never found guilty. The prosecution dropped the charges (after he had spent several nights in jail and after he had spent several thousand dollars in legal fees) rather than go into court and risk losing.

If I were taking a long trip by car, what I would do (and what I have done) is simply to follow FOPA carefully and try to avoid making overnight stops in the worst offender states such as New York, New Jersey, California, or the Cook County part of Illinois.

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

That single paragraph is the full and entire extent of the FOPA law. Anything other than what's contained in the above is speculation.

In fact, contrary to popular belief, the FOPA does exist in New Jersey. The language is repeated almost verbatim on the NJ State Police web site. I wouldn't be overly concerned driving on the New Jersey Turnpike or the Garden State Parkway through NJ. I would, however, be more cautious about local cops and "county mounties." One caveat is that as reproduced on the NJ State Police web site (and also in the laws of a couple of other states I've recently discovered), where the FOPA says "... the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container ..." NJ and some other states say "and." When driving interstate, I've gotten into the habit of assuming that the word is always "and," so I put any ammunition into an old Craftsman tool box and throw a cheap padlock on it. Firearms all go in locked gun cases.

 

[44 AMP]

The prosecution dropped the charges (after he had spent several nights in jail and after he had spent several thousand dollars in legal fees) rather than go into court and risk losing.

Here's the rub. FOPA says what it says, and until there is a court case defining "travel thru" in some specific way, the further you go from a direct path through the restrictive area, the more open you are to someone's interpretation of a prosecutable offense.

Gas, food, lodging, near the travel route is usually not an issue, but as the NJ case shows, it can be, if the locals think it is. Going an hrs drive out of your way to spend the weekend with a distant cousin, makes your argument of "just passing through" nearly worthless.

All they see is you are running around their state illegally in possession of firearm(s).

And, besides the expense and hassle of getting arrested, and eventually having the charges dropped, there is also the risk of future complications because you will have an arrest record. This data might show up (and only that you were arrested for a gun charge, never that the case was dropped) almost anywhere nowdays.

Might cause a delay or denial on your next background check. Might show up if you go looking for a job. Might show up on a permit application, etc.

And if it does, it will be up to you to prove how the case was resolved. EVERY TIME. (not saying this WILL happen, but it IS possible).

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Gas, food, lodging, near the travel route is usually not an issue, but as the NJ case shows, it can be, if the locals think it is. Going an hrs drive out of your way to spend the weekend with a distant cousin, makes your argument of "just passing through" nearly worthless.

I couldn't agree more. If you stop to spend a weekend with friends or relatives, that becomes a destination on a multi-destination trip, it's no longer traveling through.

Gregg Revell's case was still different, though, because of the air travel aspect and the fact that he had the gun(s) with him in his hotel room overnight. I would like to think that he would have been found not guilty if his case had gone to triel, and I have always suspected the prosecutor was fairly sure Revell would win and that's why the charges were dropped.

Also, let's not forget that it wasn't the "local" law enforcement who jacked him up. It was officers of the New York/New Jersey Port Authority, which has jurisdiction over JFK, LaGuardia, and Newark airports. Revell was traveling through Newark.

 

[FITASC]

From the other thread re: NYC gun laws:
"You cant even bring a gun into NY state as a non resident unless you are just passing through and spending less than 24hrs there,..."

Really? Then how do all those folks from all over come there to shoot at Dover Furnace, Orvis Sandanona and other similar places for a 2-3 day shoot?

What a bunch of BS

 

[44 AMP]

Revell was traveling through Newark.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Mr Revell wasn't "jacked up" until he claimed his guns from the airline. I am unsure if the airline told him he had to do this, or not, but I would not put it past some airline personnel to have instructed him to do it. (after all, its normal when they put you up in a hotel, because they couldn't get you on a plane, to take your luggage with you to the hotel, right?)

This may have been the reason the case was dropped. If he was (as it appears) just obeying the "rules" in good faith (and possibly being instructed into a technical violation of local law) that could create enough doubt to cause the prosecutor to decide it wasn't worth the effort of putting it before a jury.

The 86 FOPA was a decent attempt to redress some serious issues with people being prosecuted, and convicted of crimes they had no intention of committing.

Not perfect, but it has helped a lot of people who would otherwise now have felony records simply due to restrictive local laws or clerical errors.

 

[Tom Servo]

Really? Then how do all those folks from all over come there to shoot at Dover Furnace, Orvis Sandanona and other similar places for a 2-3 day shoot?

New York Penal Code 265.20 provides specific exemptions, but only for transport in conjunction with participation in sanctioned competitions. Even then, it's only 48 hours. The bolded parts are extremely important.

12. Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person who is a member or coach of an accredited college or university target pistol team while transporting the pistol or revolver into or through New York state to participate in a collegiate, olympic or target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the national rifle association, provided such pistol or revolver is unloaded and carried in a locked carrying case and the ammunition therefor is carried in a separate locked container.

13. Possession of pistols and revolvers by a person who is a nonresident of this state while attending or traveling to or from, an organized competitive pistol match or league competition under auspices of, or approved by, the National Rifle Association and in which he is a competitor, within forty-eight hours of such event or by a person who is a non-resident of the state while attending or traveling to or from an organized match sanctioned by the International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association and in which he is a competitor, within forty-eight hours of such event, provided that he has not been previously convicted of a felony or a crime which, if committed in New York, would constitute a felony, and further provided that the pistols or revolvers are transported unloaded in a locked opaque container together with a copy of the match program, match schedule or match registration card. Such documentation shall constitute prima facie evidence of exemption, providing that such person also has in his possession a pistol license or firearms registration card issued in accordance with the laws of his place of residence.

And do let's dial back the snark.

 

[Armed_Chicagoan]

If I were taking a long trip by car, what I would do (and what I have done) is simply to follow FOPA carefully and try to avoid making overnight stops in the worst offender states such as New York, New Jersey, California, or the Cook County part of Illinois.

There are no issues in Cook County. All handgun regulation are preempted by state law, as is transportation of all firearms. If it's legal to transport through southern Illinois it's legal in Cook County.

Just transport it legally under state of Illinois law and you'll be fine. Unloaded and in a case. The case doesn't have to be locked or even designed specifically as a gun case (in fact even the glove box counts as a case), and in Illinois a loaded magazine not inserted into the gun is legally an unloaded gun. It does not have to be in a separate case.

I'm not saying it's gun owners paradise here but comparisons to NY, NJ, or CA are ridiculous.