Presidential Candidate Alan Keyes appeared on the "Hardball with Chris Matthews" television show yesterday, January 25, 2000. Chris Matthews (no friend of the 2nd Amendment) "grilled" Keyes on his view of the Second Amendment. The following is a transcript of that conversation.
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Mathews: "Let me ask you about your position on gun control. Everybody knows we've got a second amendment, although it's often taken out of the kids' textbooks when you study the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where do you stand on the Second Amendment?"
Keyes: "I strongly support it. I think the Second Amendment is there because the founders understood the lesson of history; that a free people must be an armed people, capable of defending their liberties, not only against foreign enemies but potentially against an abusive government. That's why the right to keep and bear arms is there, why it is guaranteed to the citizens of this country and why we would be in grave danger if we ever lose our ability to respect the instruments of our defense and to make responsible use of them."
Matthews: "Do you keep a gun at home to protect you from a repressive government?"
Keyes: "Well, I keep a gun at home. I think I got it in order to help protect the family, but I think that it's also, in the larger sense, part of what we as citizens have a right to keep in the event that yes, things go wrong in this country. Jefferson, others who were part of the founders, they made it very clear, it's right there in the Declaration, that if a government becomes subversive of liberty, and in the end a design is evinced to destroy the liberty of the people, they have the right, he said, they have the duty to alter or abolish it. And that means, that ultimately, the people of the country are the arbiters, and they must be prepared to defend themselves if push comes to shove. That's why the Second Amendment is there. We can be timid about it if we like, but that's the truth of it."
Matthews: "Well, you know, I don't think it's a question of being timid, it's a question of what is a credible threat to us. During the 1950's and 60's and later, people, some people, went out and dug air raid shelters, fallout shelters, to hide in if there was a nuclear war. That was something they thought was credible, and they took steps to protect themselves. Do you think that there's a real credible threat, some day, of an armed force, a United Nations force, arriving in the small towns and hamlets of America?!"
Keyes: "No, no, excuse me! I didn't say anything about the United Nations. I didn't say anything about any such thing. The credible threat, sir, at the end of the 20th century, even to raise that question seems to me absurd. We are at the end of a century when the abuse of human beings by government power has claimed the lives of millions of human beings. The suggestion that human nature has somehow changed since the founding period, and we no longer have to fear the abuse of government power is so absurd at the end of the 20th century I don't even want to address it. This is ridiculous. We have the same nature today that human beings had when that document was written. We can put no more trust in those who have government power than our founders could. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely, was the old phrase. And that means when you entrust people with power, make sure you keep the means to be vigilant against their abuse. It's
a lesson of history we will be loathe to forget, it seems to me."
Matthews: "In other words, you don't share those concerns that I hear so often on this program;
I get letters on this to the effect that people fear, not so much a Washington repressive force coming to reach out and grab control of the local communities of this country, but a loss of U.S. sovereignty, which would permit an international force, you know, the phrase "black helicopters" is used so often . . . "
Keyes: "Meaning no offense, Chris, this is not the context of the Second Amendment discussion. I think that we have all kinds of institutions in this country that make sure we can defend our borders and our sovereignty. I think that the giveaway of sovereignty is not happening because we have troops coming across the border. It's because we have Bill Clinton and George Bush and Forbes and other people delivering us over to a free-trade regime, handing our sovereignty off to the World Trade Organization. We are losing it without firing a shot. So it seems to me if we want to defend against that, the ballot is the place we're gonna have to go."
Matthews: "In the course of your adulthood and political concerns, have you ever come
across evidence of the possibility of a repressive government reaching out into the American
people and creating a situation where a smart person would have to arm him or her self to protect themselves against such a force? Do you ever see any evidence of an aggressive Washington totalitarian . . . ?"
Keyes: "Sure. I would think that anybody who lived in this country in the last several years, and watched the egregious abuse of power that took place at Waco, is reminded that sometimes, for whatever reason best known to themselves, the people in our government lose sight of who they are supposed to be. That was a thoroughly disgusting, tragic, and un-American episode! It was Janet Reno, Janet Reno said that 'cause "they were tired" they went in and killed all those people, including children! I think that that's time to remember, that yes, power can be abused."
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Mathews: "Let me ask you about your position on gun control. Everybody knows we've got a second amendment, although it's often taken out of the kids' textbooks when you study the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where do you stand on the Second Amendment?"
Keyes: "I strongly support it. I think the Second Amendment is there because the founders understood the lesson of history; that a free people must be an armed people, capable of defending their liberties, not only against foreign enemies but potentially against an abusive government. That's why the right to keep and bear arms is there, why it is guaranteed to the citizens of this country and why we would be in grave danger if we ever lose our ability to respect the instruments of our defense and to make responsible use of them."
Matthews: "Do you keep a gun at home to protect you from a repressive government?"
Keyes: "Well, I keep a gun at home. I think I got it in order to help protect the family, but I think that it's also, in the larger sense, part of what we as citizens have a right to keep in the event that yes, things go wrong in this country. Jefferson, others who were part of the founders, they made it very clear, it's right there in the Declaration, that if a government becomes subversive of liberty, and in the end a design is evinced to destroy the liberty of the people, they have the right, he said, they have the duty to alter or abolish it. And that means, that ultimately, the people of the country are the arbiters, and they must be prepared to defend themselves if push comes to shove. That's why the Second Amendment is there. We can be timid about it if we like, but that's the truth of it."
Matthews: "Well, you know, I don't think it's a question of being timid, it's a question of what is a credible threat to us. During the 1950's and 60's and later, people, some people, went out and dug air raid shelters, fallout shelters, to hide in if there was a nuclear war. That was something they thought was credible, and they took steps to protect themselves. Do you think that there's a real credible threat, some day, of an armed force, a United Nations force, arriving in the small towns and hamlets of America?!"
Keyes: "No, no, excuse me! I didn't say anything about the United Nations. I didn't say anything about any such thing. The credible threat, sir, at the end of the 20th century, even to raise that question seems to me absurd. We are at the end of a century when the abuse of human beings by government power has claimed the lives of millions of human beings. The suggestion that human nature has somehow changed since the founding period, and we no longer have to fear the abuse of government power is so absurd at the end of the 20th century I don't even want to address it. This is ridiculous. We have the same nature today that human beings had when that document was written. We can put no more trust in those who have government power than our founders could. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely, was the old phrase. And that means when you entrust people with power, make sure you keep the means to be vigilant against their abuse. It's
a lesson of history we will be loathe to forget, it seems to me."
Matthews: "In other words, you don't share those concerns that I hear so often on this program;
I get letters on this to the effect that people fear, not so much a Washington repressive force coming to reach out and grab control of the local communities of this country, but a loss of U.S. sovereignty, which would permit an international force, you know, the phrase "black helicopters" is used so often . . . "
Keyes: "Meaning no offense, Chris, this is not the context of the Second Amendment discussion. I think that we have all kinds of institutions in this country that make sure we can defend our borders and our sovereignty. I think that the giveaway of sovereignty is not happening because we have troops coming across the border. It's because we have Bill Clinton and George Bush and Forbes and other people delivering us over to a free-trade regime, handing our sovereignty off to the World Trade Organization. We are losing it without firing a shot. So it seems to me if we want to defend against that, the ballot is the place we're gonna have to go."
Matthews: "In the course of your adulthood and political concerns, have you ever come
across evidence of the possibility of a repressive government reaching out into the American
people and creating a situation where a smart person would have to arm him or her self to protect themselves against such a force? Do you ever see any evidence of an aggressive Washington totalitarian . . . ?"
Keyes: "Sure. I would think that anybody who lived in this country in the last several years, and watched the egregious abuse of power that took place at Waco, is reminded that sometimes, for whatever reason best known to themselves, the people in our government lose sight of who they are supposed to be. That was a thoroughly disgusting, tragic, and un-American episode! It was Janet Reno, Janet Reno said that 'cause "they were tired" they went in and killed all those people, including children! I think that that's time to remember, that yes, power can be abused."
