Training with select fire vs semi auto, differences?

K

Kimio

New member
Not 100% sure if this is the right section to post this.

If not, could an admin please move it to the proper sub forun?

Despite bring in the military, my job does not require me to qualify yearly with a firearm (even then, the "qualifications" for when I do, and how much actual trigger time I get is a positive joke).

I'm curious about how folks who are trained to fire their given weappn, how it differs (if at all) to training with a semi auto only firearm. How does one go about dealing with the muzzle climb and so on. Do you lean into the rifle more to try ad offset tell recoil?

Obviously you won't be doing back to back 30 round magazine dumps all the time (If memory serves, soldiers are actually expressly forbidden to switch to of full auto during most situations since suppressing fire is relegated to the squads LMG user and to conserve ammunition).
 
Last edited:
You train with what you have and under the conditions that best simulate how you're going to fight. Never mind trying to simulate full auto.
 
Wasn't really saying yoy should train for full auto, the question was more about if there is any major differences and exactly what those differences are.
 
Actual trigger time you get is likely not much different than anybody else. Shooting costs the military money too.
Spent 6 years in the Queen's Service way in reserve. Regm't I was affiliated with went on a range week end once in that time. About 1/3 of the bodies on that exercised were my Cadets(LMG's were involved.). They never used the indoor range in the armoury either. Ranges at the nearest Reg Force base were primarily only used on weekends too.
Training with a select fire weapon is not something anybody but the military/LEO does(few LEO ever see anything but their service piece though). However, naturally there are differences. Shooting FA isn't rocket science though. It's about you knowing how to control the trigger.
"...forbidden to switch out of full auto..." More likely not out of semi-auto, but not due to suppressing anything.
 
Gah, that was a typo, I meant to say they were not allowed to switch to full auto most of the time to conserve ammunition among other things.
 
Not sure how much this helps, but in my one and half years in the infantry (including basic), I've never shot any live rounds in burst with the M4. Albeit I'm NG so I don't train that much anyways, but my unit still does quite a bit of shooting. I used burst once with blanks to get rid of some extras but that's it. It would make absolutely no difference if we trained with semi auto only AR15s.

I do have experience with full auto with the M240L though as an assistant gunner. I've never fired it in any position except prone. The recoil will kind of jolt you around a little if you're a smaller guy like me, but nothing bad.
 
My experience has been that most in the military and even less in law enforcement, have had any kind of real training in how to effectively use a select fire/full auto weapon (even simply basic weapons). Ive seen enough of them shoot mine, or those of friends, to know it can be pretty scary.

Whats amazing is, the technique is actually very quickly and easily learned, and most who are shown what to do, are shooting well within a mag or two. Its so easy, both my kids were shooting my MP5 at 5 years old, and with perfect trigger control (I learned it at 8 on an M3). On many occasions, they often showed up so called adult "experts", who again, were often quite scary when they were handed the gun. I always hesitantly gave the gun to anyone I really didnt know, with only 3-5 rounds in the mag, until I was sure they knew what they were doing. I learned that lesson early on. :rolleyes:

The technique is quite simple. Sighting just over top of the gun, you basically "relax", and ride it like a fire hose, and keep willing the rounds to where you look, like spraying a strong hose. You'd be amazed at how easy it is to shoot them this way.

If you try to physically hold it on target, it will normally run up and to the right (assuming a right handed shooter, opposite for a lefty). Trigger control is certainly important, and proper, but you can easily do full mag dumps on the target, keeping all the rounds centered on the target, with no troubles.

The above will work with pretty much anything, but pistol, and smaller caliber rifles are the easiest.

Full auto has its place and uses. Knowing when to use it, is something that seems to be lost on most, and Im convinced, TV and movies have done more to "teach" people, than anything else. My FIL used to hate watching TV with my kids. There were constantly critiquing the actors "gun skills" and screaming "you cant shoot that like that!". Used to drive him nuts. :)
 
I got to put 100 rounds through a Thompson once. In the limited time I had with it I could NOT keep the muzzle from rising and going to the right. Shrug. It was surprisingly easy to limit it to two, three or four round bursts though.

Shot a full auto M14...that was really ugly. Rounds all over the place.

9mm and .223 seem to be much, much easier to control. Although maybe the bigger calibers can be tamed by big heavy guns...anybody ever shoot a .30-06 BAR?
 
I had a shipmate who could control the M-14 on full auto - he was an ex Mexican wrestler who was as wide as he was tall...
Training with a select fire weapon is not something anybody but the military/LEO does
Click to expand...
Thank you for your service to Queen and Country, but I do have to say I'm glad to live where I can legally own select fire...IF I can find the money for it, that is. :D
 
Full auto has its place....

In the jungle shooting from one tree line to another where you're trying to get fire superiority but cant see who you're shooting at

Or extremely close range using violence of action (this is questionable)

But if and distance is involved, semi is more effective putting rounds down range.

I was a platoon leader in a airborne infantry unit when this subject came up. Everyone wanted to shoot full auto all the time. We were using M16A1s.

So I bet 3 guys, that at 100 yards I could put more rounds on an E-target semi then they can full auto.

We each took one magazine of 18 rounds (we were using 20 rd.) All three of them had to fire full auto at one target, and I was to fire semi at my target. Looser bought beer and pizza.

Mind you, this was they shooting 54 rounds full auto vs. me shooting 18 rounds semi.

It wasn't even close. I had 17 rounds on my target, they had 9 on theirs, 17/18 vs 9/54.

The M16A1 doesn't have much recoil, but it has enough to take you off a 19 X 40 inch target at 100 yards.

I was running sniper schools using M1C/D's and M21s. We were using the machine gun ranges where we had pop up targets to 1100 yards. Range Central complained that we destroyed more targets in one class then the Machine guns did in one year.

Full auto has its place, suppressive fire, but if you want to hit something, or want to put more rounds on target in less time, use semi.
 
As hard as it is to keep on a chest sized target with an AK at 200 yards -- bench rested---
Hard to imagine one hitting much on full auto, ESPECIALLY offhand as you see on the news all the time
:)
 
Full auto has its place, suppressive fire, but if you want to hit something, or want to put more rounds on target in less time, use semi.
Click to expand...
Other than suppressive fire, shooting at longer ranges in anything but semi is truly a waste, unless youre just making noise. Like anything else, you need to understand what you have and what works to be effective.

At close range, Ill guarantee youll get more rounds on target with one pull of the trigger, quicker, with the full auto, than you will semi. By close range, I do mean "close" though, think shotgun with buckshot distances, and used in the same capacity.

This was the last target I shot with my M11/9mm MAC before I got rid of it. It has two full mag dumps (one pull on the trigger for each) in it, shot from 10 yards. 50 rounds (25 per mag), in ~3 seconds (~1.5 seconds per mag).

ry%3D480


Its not hard to control the gun, once you understand the technique. One of our fun little competitions used to be to see who could keep a full mag, or as near as many rounds as possible, in an 8" paper plate, at 10 yards, one pull of the trigger. The MAC's were the hardest to do it with, the MP5's, MP40's, STEN's etc, were really pretty easy.

With multiple targets, its simply a mater of point and burst, and as hard as you can go.

But you dont get to that point, with just a time or two out with the gun either. Like anything else, it requires realistic practice, and a lot of shooting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top