I found some 223 tracer ammo today at a gun show. It was cheap and so I went ahead purchased a box to shoot in my AR if for anything, the novelty of it. However, after getting home, it occurred to me that tracer ammo by nature could actually be destructive and retard the life of the barrel. I don't have any real knowledge of tracer ammo so I would like to solicit the opinion of anyone who could tell me if this type of ammo is safe on the firearm.
Tracer ammo
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the rifleer
New member
I don't think that it hurts the barrel. The military shoots a lot of it.
jonnyc, from where do you get information to claim that modern tracer ammo has a 100 yd delay before it lights? I've shot lots of 5.56 and 7.62 tracer ammo over the past 22 years and have never once encountered one that wasn't burning when it left the barrel.
The majority of my experience with tracer has been on a night fire course without night vision goggles, shooting at 25m targets.
The majority of my experience with tracer has been on a night fire course without night vision goggles, shooting at 25m targets.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I doubt that the temperature of a tracer exceeds that of the gunpowder. Odds are that it's already past the leade when it ignites, and the leade is the only part of a gun barrel where erosion is any real problem.
A tracer shouldn't harm your barrel any more than your standard FMJ. Typically a tracer won't ignite till at least 75yds from your shooting location.
Now of course as others have mentioned shooting tracers has other dangers inherent to the type of ammo you're shooting. The threat of starting fires is pretty high unless you're shooting into a quarry of some sort where there aren't any flammables to ignite. Most ranges don't allow tracers because of the danger of fires and you can get booted from a range (and perhaps barred from returning) if you shoot tracers there.
Every now and then my buddies and I will load up some tracers and go shoot them in the dusk or at night but we shoot into an old quarry that belongs to a family friend. Even at 300 yards the tracers from our ARs strike into the sand and gravel walls of the quarry and despite going in pretty deep they still put out little spouts of flames for some time after impact. Its kind of cool - seeing the wall with multiple little spots of glowing red flames in the dark of the night. Knowing how long tracers burn though I'd never shoot at anything other than a backstop like that - totally devoid of flammables.
Now of course as others have mentioned shooting tracers has other dangers inherent to the type of ammo you're shooting. The threat of starting fires is pretty high unless you're shooting into a quarry of some sort where there aren't any flammables to ignite. Most ranges don't allow tracers because of the danger of fires and you can get booted from a range (and perhaps barred from returning) if you shoot tracers there.
Every now and then my buddies and I will load up some tracers and go shoot them in the dusk or at night but we shoot into an old quarry that belongs to a family friend. Even at 300 yards the tracers from our ARs strike into the sand and gravel walls of the quarry and despite going in pretty deep they still put out little spouts of flames for some time after impact. Its kind of cool - seeing the wall with multiple little spots of glowing red flames in the dark of the night. Knowing how long tracers burn though I'd never shoot at anything other than a backstop like that - totally devoid of flammables.
BPowderkeg
Moderator
where in Alabama are you ? just go down to the Gulf coast and fire it over the Gulf, tracers skipping over water at night is a sight to behold !! and you sure as hell will not start any fires.., stay away from ranges and forrests/woods.
sc928porsche
New member
Tracers are usually made with either phosporous or magnisium. Both burn at higher temperature than gunpowder and can damage barrels if not cleaned properly after firing because of residue. On machine guns, they are usually spaced at every 5th round. BTW........the powder charge ignites the tracer and the material is at the base of the bullet. They color the tip, but that is to denote that it is a tracer. Both phosporous and magnisium burn untill depleted.
Tom,
I've fired 100's (1,000's?) of tracers from Galil's, M4s, M16s, AKs, and Mag 58's....all had a 75 to 100 yard delay. That is standard in the industry, to both protect the shooter's night-vision and to obfuscate their firing position.
The only tracers I ever used that might not have had a delay were Israeli 9mm through Uzi's.
Not sure what you were using on a 25 meter course, but it sure don't sound standard. And why on Earth would you want/need tracers for at that short range??? The muzzle blast alone will light up your target and you'll see what you're hitting.
Do some study and you'll learn all about tracer ignition delay.
I've fired 100's (1,000's?) of tracers from Galil's, M4s, M16s, AKs, and Mag 58's....all had a 75 to 100 yard delay. That is standard in the industry, to both protect the shooter's night-vision and to obfuscate their firing position.
The only tracers I ever used that might not have had a delay were Israeli 9mm through Uzi's.
Not sure what you were using on a 25 meter course, but it sure don't sound standard. And why on Earth would you want/need tracers for at that short range??? The muzzle blast alone will light up your target and you'll see what you're hitting.
Do some study and you'll learn all about tracer ignition delay.
Arizona Smithshooter
New member
Just did a Google search and found this:
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/tracer.html
"Tracers work both ways"
BUT they don't have to! There are such things as "Dark ignition" tracers in which the tracer element does not start burning until it is 25-50m from the muzzle.
A 4:1 ball:tracer mix is recommended to troops as a standard mix for M16 magazines, but all references I've found on US service 5.56mm rounds makes no mention of dark ignition. One veteran soldier was unaware that such rounds existed, but thought they were a good idea.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/556.htm
A quick websearch indicated that the 30-06 family of rounds included a dark ignition round called the T10 or M25.
M25 dark ignition round
The same search indicated that both the NATO and US ordinance colour codes distinguished dark ignition tracers by giving them an orange rather than red tip. The M856 round has a orange tip, so hopefully this indicates troops are using dark ignition rounds.
Recently I saw the recollections of some SAS and LRDG veterans that served in North Africa. They were very impressed that the Germans and Italians used several different colours of tracers while they had to make do with just one.
In many armies squad leaders are encouraged to carry a magazine of tracers for target indication. There is a case for issuing these in a different colour to the tracers used by the rest of the squad. These rounds probably shouldn't be dark ignition.
Another tip is to have the last three rounds in the magazine all tracer to alert the firer that he is out of ammo. These rounds probably shouldn't be dark ignition either, and maybe a different colour too.
UPDATE about t
Recently I saw a program where an ex-SAS man talking about the GPMG stating that the 7.62mm round in British use ignites at 70 metres. By coincedence Rick Randal contacted me the next day with the following observations.
"US 5.56mm and 7.62mm seem to light up about 10m downrange. I think the delay isn't supposed to be much, as the standards were set during the 1960's, when using tracers for hip-fired full auto bursts was considered a good "night fire" technique at close range.
Frankly, tracers are really most visible the closer you get to 90 degrees from the gun-target line -- and I've never had much trouble looking for the disturbed vegetation and dust from the firing position under those circumstances. Of course, I've never done this with 50-75m of ignition delay. . . but that much delay starts to affect the ability of a small unit leader to use tracers as a "short range data link", as the SciFi author David Drake once described it. . .
The target of a tracer burst is going to fire down the back azimuth (if they don't panic) -- obviating the utility of delayed ignition in that situation.
I liked a 20-rounder with straight trace as an NCO, for fire designation. I could instantly tell by touch what a magazine was loaded with.
Never liked the use of the last few rounds as tracer to tell you to reload -- an M16 recoils very differently and sounds (when you're shouldering it) slightly different (the buffer spring goes SPRONK! instead of SPRANG!) on the last round anyway, and I remember the old stories of bad guys using the Garand's clip ejection noise as a signal to charge. Plus the fact that the M16 has a automatic bolt-hold open on last round anyway (which is why it feels and sounds different -- the action is stopped halfway through the cycle).
Liked the idea of MGs having a 25 round or so teaser belt of straight trace -- not for "movement to contact", but for disrupting an assault. . . since tracers all seem to look like they're laser designated on YOU, a long "Hollywood" burst of straight trace has been noted to cause assaults to falter (learned that one from a Vietnam 1st Cav vet I served with when I was a private)."
This suggests that conditions in Vietnam have caused the US to issue tracer with no/very short delay.
NATO small arms codes use Red for a tracer with no delay and Orange for tracer with delayed ignition. 5.56mm M196 rounds have a red tip, while M856 has an orange tip. I don't know if M856 exhibits any appreachable delay.
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/tracer.html
"Tracers work both ways"
BUT they don't have to! There are such things as "Dark ignition" tracers in which the tracer element does not start burning until it is 25-50m from the muzzle.
A 4:1 ball:tracer mix is recommended to troops as a standard mix for M16 magazines, but all references I've found on US service 5.56mm rounds makes no mention of dark ignition. One veteran soldier was unaware that such rounds existed, but thought they were a good idea.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/556.htm
A quick websearch indicated that the 30-06 family of rounds included a dark ignition round called the T10 or M25.
M25 dark ignition round
The same search indicated that both the NATO and US ordinance colour codes distinguished dark ignition tracers by giving them an orange rather than red tip. The M856 round has a orange tip, so hopefully this indicates troops are using dark ignition rounds.
Recently I saw the recollections of some SAS and LRDG veterans that served in North Africa. They were very impressed that the Germans and Italians used several different colours of tracers while they had to make do with just one.
In many armies squad leaders are encouraged to carry a magazine of tracers for target indication. There is a case for issuing these in a different colour to the tracers used by the rest of the squad. These rounds probably shouldn't be dark ignition.
Another tip is to have the last three rounds in the magazine all tracer to alert the firer that he is out of ammo. These rounds probably shouldn't be dark ignition either, and maybe a different colour too.
UPDATE about t
Recently I saw a program where an ex-SAS man talking about the GPMG stating that the 7.62mm round in British use ignites at 70 metres. By coincedence Rick Randal contacted me the next day with the following observations.
"US 5.56mm and 7.62mm seem to light up about 10m downrange. I think the delay isn't supposed to be much, as the standards were set during the 1960's, when using tracers for hip-fired full auto bursts was considered a good "night fire" technique at close range.
Frankly, tracers are really most visible the closer you get to 90 degrees from the gun-target line -- and I've never had much trouble looking for the disturbed vegetation and dust from the firing position under those circumstances. Of course, I've never done this with 50-75m of ignition delay. . . but that much delay starts to affect the ability of a small unit leader to use tracers as a "short range data link", as the SciFi author David Drake once described it. . .
The target of a tracer burst is going to fire down the back azimuth (if they don't panic) -- obviating the utility of delayed ignition in that situation.
I liked a 20-rounder with straight trace as an NCO, for fire designation. I could instantly tell by touch what a magazine was loaded with.
Never liked the use of the last few rounds as tracer to tell you to reload -- an M16 recoils very differently and sounds (when you're shouldering it) slightly different (the buffer spring goes SPRONK! instead of SPRANG!) on the last round anyway, and I remember the old stories of bad guys using the Garand's clip ejection noise as a signal to charge. Plus the fact that the M16 has a automatic bolt-hold open on last round anyway (which is why it feels and sounds different -- the action is stopped halfway through the cycle).
Liked the idea of MGs having a 25 round or so teaser belt of straight trace -- not for "movement to contact", but for disrupting an assault. . . since tracers all seem to look like they're laser designated on YOU, a long "Hollywood" burst of straight trace has been noted to cause assaults to falter (learned that one from a Vietnam 1st Cav vet I served with when I was a private)."
This suggests that conditions in Vietnam have caused the US to issue tracer with no/very short delay.
NATO small arms codes use Red for a tracer with no delay and Orange for tracer with delayed ignition. 5.56mm M196 rounds have a red tip, while M856 has an orange tip. I don't know if M856 exhibits any appreachable delay.
chris in va
New member
Tracers generally don't ignite until they leave the barrel.
I have tried and tried to start a fire with tracer ammunition with no success, with the fire dept. present under controlled conditions. I have tried over 1000 rounds of Lake City tracer. I have fired Lake City and a ton of Russian tracers. I have fired it at multiple sub straights with no success.
Arizona Smithshooter
New member
M-60 + 7.62 tracer ammo = Burning Junks in the Mekong Delta, 1965.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)
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I am curious what price you got, ? It is something I always wanted but saw it to be so expensive.
I did notice finally someone, near the bottom of the posts list, mentioned the staggering of the tracers in the mag... big big deal there. No reason to just shoot tracers as in a mag full of tracers, unless you're trying to have fun lighting up some of your money or it's like the 4th of July etc.
4:1 ration sounds good a civilian might even go higher to extend their supply of tracers and incidentally their supply of money, .. if your magazine holds 30 rounds i see no reason not go 6:1 or 7:1, and a good policy is you can make your last 2 or sometimes 3 rounds tracers, so you see your mag is about to be empty in a combat/SHTF shooting scenario, when you get back to back tracers. If you have the last 3 loaded as tracers, what's good about that is, you know you're down to the end when you see 2 tracers back to back, then you know you have 1 round left and its also a tracer, so you know you can use that last round for several purposes of which you might use a tracer for (Showing your mates where you concentrate their fire, lighting up a specific path or piece of target real estate, dazzling your senses with the coool looking color contrail, ;-p etc. )
I did notice finally someone, near the bottom of the posts list, mentioned the staggering of the tracers in the mag... big big deal there. No reason to just shoot tracers as in a mag full of tracers, unless you're trying to have fun lighting up some of your money or it's like the 4th of July etc.
4:1 ration sounds good a civilian might even go higher to extend their supply of tracers and incidentally their supply of money, .. if your magazine holds 30 rounds i see no reason not go 6:1 or 7:1, and a good policy is you can make your last 2 or sometimes 3 rounds tracers, so you see your mag is about to be empty in a combat/SHTF shooting scenario, when you get back to back tracers. If you have the last 3 loaded as tracers, what's good about that is, you know you're down to the end when you see 2 tracers back to back, then you know you have 1 round left and its also a tracer, so you know you can use that last round for several purposes of which you might use a tracer for (Showing your mates where you concentrate their fire, lighting up a specific path or piece of target real estate, dazzling your senses with the coool looking color contrail, ;-p etc. )
tahunua001
New member
it may leave a bit of leftover junk in your barrel but overall barrel wear shouldn't be too much rougher than the ordinary. just be warned, some states outlaw tracers and many ranges, both indoor and outdoor don't allow the use of such.
I picked up a bag of incendiary rounds for my mosin at a local gun show. The same thoughts crossed my mind that they may be dirty and a misfire could be catastrophic but oh well. Can't wait to try them out. Unfortunately we're in high fire danger right now and being a former firefighter I can't in good conscious fire em off right now!
How can a tracer not light until after it leaves the barrel? It's not like there's some little guy in there waiting to light a fuse or something. It HAS to be ignited by the powder.
Maybe it isn't incandescent until some distance downrange, but it has to be burning before it leaves the barrel.
Maybe it isn't incandescent until some distance downrange, but it has to be burning before it leaves the barrel.
jonnyc,
the 5.56mm the tracers I have used have been M196 (15-20 yrs ago, or thereabouts) and M856 (up to present) on US Army small arms ranges.
M16 (and I presume M4) qualification consists of day fire tables, NBC firing table, and night firing tables. Most of the night fire I have done has been on the cheap--no NVGs, and therefore we fired only at the 25 (maybe it was 50? i can't be certain now, I've been issued M9 since 2003), with the target illuminated by a chem-light. Perhaps the stuff that makes it to the civilian market is different, I dunno...I've only fired rounds that were USG issued.
the 5.56mm the tracers I have used have been M196 (15-20 yrs ago, or thereabouts) and M856 (up to present) on US Army small arms ranges.
M16 (and I presume M4) qualification consists of day fire tables, NBC firing table, and night firing tables. Most of the night fire I have done has been on the cheap--no NVGs, and therefore we fired only at the 25 (maybe it was 50? i can't be certain now, I've been issued M9 since 2003), with the target illuminated by a chem-light. Perhaps the stuff that makes it to the civilian market is different, I dunno...I've only fired rounds that were USG issued.