Toy guns & dangerous habits

D

Dagny

New member
Looking for a present for young boy, found a $1.99 water pistol which looks very much like a 9mm semi-auto. Figured to buy one now because next year they may be banned. Of course I couldn't resist trying it out by wet-firing" at various targets. Friend comes by and I draw and fire on his chest. Scared the daylights out of him because he also knows I carry real guns.

This has got me to thinking. Are such toy squirt guns a good idea? Even for adults, they permit us to develop bad practices. What really scares me is not paying attention and doing the same stunt with a real 9mm. If I, as an adult, can see this happening with an adult (me), then it really scares me to have kids playing with these things. Maybe they should be banned.
 
Pointin sumpin that looks like a gun at somebody liable to getcha shot. I think water pistol play by adults should always be done with the knowledge of all parties.

People get shot for pointin radios, lazer tag guns, water pistols, cap guns etc at other people.

Color don't cut it, know of real guns powdercoated in strange colors. Hot pink and baby blue come to mind as recent sightings.

Sam.....am I up yet?
 
I love toy weapons and think kids do too. But as I have gained a little wisdom my views are this now. Toy guns can be used to teach bad habits or to teach good ones.

I will not stand for letting children under my supervision to ever let them point a TOY gun, (or even their finger gun) bent over barbie double barrels,or whatever, at anything human or animal.

I make them behave as if the gun were real. Properly done it doesn't take any of the fun out of it. They are never too young to learn safe gun handling.

They can be trained for more adult weapon/hunting tool techniques at an appropriate age and level of maturity.

The world is full fo things to shoot that aren't human. If you must let them shoot each other with squirt guns, have them aim high above their targets and let the water fall on their prey. -ddt4free
 
I've thought about this a lot, and I've come up with an opinion that may get me flamed.

Personally I don't want my kids to have toy guns.

I figure that we have real guns all over the place. I will teach my kids to shoot, of course. But I believe that toy guns would mostly teach them bad safety habits. I want them to know that guns are fun, but need to be treated with the utmost respect.

I do see a few exceptions to this rule however: Paintball, if they want to do that great, because it is really fun, and requires its own set of safety rules. And big colorfull water guns (like super soakers & such), I can't see any harm in having fun with something that is so obviously different. (well different to everybody but a brain-dead anti). :)
 
My son have different kinds of toy guns and so do I. But he knows better than to point it at human or pets. I take him to the range with me so he knows the safety rules.

Some kids here in my place would divide themselves to groups and play with 6mm soft pellets. I have been shot by one of these toys and it really hurt. Just imagine if one of them get shot in the eye...

vega
 
Personally, I feel paint ball guns/play would teach worse behavior than anything. I don't allow kids to shoot anything at another human being or animal in play. Just my opinion.
 
Kids nowadays want toy guns that look like the real things. One time a kid was pointing a Colt 45 look-alike toygun at me while I was waiting in line at a supermarket and I went berserk.
I never felt so angry in my life. I let the kid, the Mom and everybody else have an earfull of gun safety lecture. Letting your kids play with toyguns not only teach them bad habits, it might one day kill him or his siblings.
 
Just to give a bit of perspective, an anecdote. I don't have kids (yet), but maybe not too far off here, and I've been thinking about how to handle this for my future family...TFL advice to the rescue again :)

Anyway, when my brother and I were children...er, younger...we had lots of toy guns. I mean lots. And the more realistic looking/functioning the better. There were no real firearms in our home. My parents were divorced, and neither my mother nor my father had any weapons. No structured safety lectures (other than the standard stay away, etc.). As I got older, I don't remember ever having any confusion as to the difference between playing with my brother (and yes, we used to point them at each other...that was the whole idea) and real firearms. My brother and I are both gun nuts now (or fledgling gun nuts, in my case) and practice extremely safe gunhandling. We even teach others. I may be getting my NRA pistol instructor's cert. here shortly.

I don't know what to add to this other than that anecdote. We didn't 'run into' firearms as children, so I don't actually know how that would have turned out. But my gut tells me we would not have confused the issue. We didn't point our toy-guns at other people who weren't part of the game, but we most certainly pointed them at each other.

For what it's worth. IMHO, children can absorb more than most people think, when I was that age, I just don't see myself confusing the two. I'll point out as well, that this view (children can point toy guns for games) is NOT held by many...or actually, any...of my friends who grew up with real firearms in the home. They won't let the kids anywhere near toy guns, paintball or otherwise.

Me, I don't know how I'll deal with it yet, but I thought I'd let you all hear this story, for the record.

- gabe
 
In defense of paintball, I don't think that it teaches bad habits. Just for the fact that it is a seperate and distinct activity, with its own set of very strict safety rules. Also on the bright sides it teaches the principles of "shoot & move", suppresive fire, and use of concealment. It is organized, and if you don't obey the safety rule, you will get hurt. So different rules than real guns, but same principles, obey the rules and nobody will get injured.
 
My son (18 months) will not be allowed to have toy guns as per his mother. This is so he will be allowed eventually to go shooting/hunting with me. Her rule and one I can live with. I think we'll get him potty trained before we start the firearms safety instuction though. :D
 
I think lazer tag, paintball and water pistols are cool.

However: If a person who is not in on the game gets involved, it can get nasty.

Two points to address. 1. If all parties in the game are aware of the difference between real and play then I say no harm in the game and probably benefeits. 2. If a party to the game covers an armed citizen who is not a party to the game, then that person may perceive the weapon to be real, further perceive their life to be threatened....and in self defence shoot the game player. This happened too many times and in many cases the shooting has been deemed justified.

Applies to adults and children alike.

Just this last January, in a high rent district of California, night, parking area....I suddenly saw a lazer dot sweep across the pavement toward me and disapear as if it were on me. I married the backside of a tree and prepared to defend. Turned out to be an idiot using his pointer to walk his dog. We had a discussion. With only tiny change in the script I would have acquired a target and fired. Though expensive, I would probably have gotten off.

Sam...everything fell into place, wonder where that place is.
 
In my store I've a "toy gun" behind the counter but somewhat easily in view if a perp tried to reach over the counter and get it. Reason? It's a decoy to give me time to get the real one.

This is a serious matter. I too have "shot" friends with toy guns. But now as a gun-owning adult who other adults view as likely to be carrying or having one available, this is not a "game" any more. Using a authentic looking "9mm" squirt gun on unsuspecting people will 1} get them scared, 2} get them angry, 3} further the anti-gun agenda by maybe pushing a fence sitter into the anti camp.

It would be best to limit use of such a toy squirt gun to what you refer to as "wet-fire" practice BUT using it according to all the rules that would go with a real 9mm. One advantage of practicing with such a toy gun is the worst you could do with a negligent discharge is wet your pants. :D

As to the banning of such "toys"...
perhaps only gun dealers should sell them and then only to those who've passed a background check for another weapon (I can't see the forms being filled out for a squirt gun.)

Thus, you see, I view these "toys" as serious tools just one notch less serious than real weapons loaded with blanks.
 
There have been a number of cases where police shot and killed people "armed" with toy guns. In one case, the victim was 17 years old, 6' 3" and weighed 210. The outcry was that the officer "should have known" that the gun was a toy, that the person holding it was "only a child", and was mentally retarded. The cop got off both on criminal charges and in a civil suit, but a citizen might not be so lucky.

Jim
 
We don't do toy guns, either.

The kids sometimes make their own toy guns from Legos, sticks found in the yard, popsicle sticks, rolled up newspapers ... and everything else under the sun. The rule with these obviously-not-real guns is that you don't point them at people -- aiming at imaginary bad guys is ok, but pointing a gun at another kid pretending to be a bad guy is a no no.

Squirt guns -- well, the grandparents have given them Super Soaker type guns from time to time. I'm not wild about it but they're so obviously for water play and not for gun play that we let it go.

When we buy water play items, we buy plant misters at three for a dollar from the discount store. The misters hold more than a regular squirt gun, last longer, squirt further ... and don't look like a gun.

pax

"For unflagging interest and enjoyment, a household of children, if things go reasonably well, certainly all other forms of success and achievement lose their importance by comparison." -- Theodore Roosevelt
 
Boy, 60 years makes a difference, doesn't it?

I got my first cap-pistol around age 5; my first Daisy Red Ryder a couple of years later. (Shame I don't still have them! Ah, the antique value!)

A fairly large number of us played cowboys and Indians or outlaws and lawmen. What with B Westerns and the Dalton Gang, I always like the sound of "Dalton", so I wuz one of them. Been about half-outlaw ever since.

But we pointed our cap-pistols at each other and blazed away. After WW II began, and there were no more caps, we did "mouth-bangs" in simulation of "the real thing".

As I recall, all this was in daylight and nobody ever mistook our activities for other than kids at play. Another recollectin is that those who weren't part of our game were ignored. It wasn't that we *shouldn't* "shoot" at them; they just weren't involved--and were just "furniture".

Most of us had BB guns, contemporaneously. We knew the difference, and did not point or shoot at each other with them. As we got on toward ten or twelve, and got .22 rifles of our own, the cap guns were put away--typically, handed down to the "little kids".

Safety and vandalism were non-issues. Period.

Damfino. I guess it's a function of where you live, what sort of neighbors you have, and the local culture.

If I have any opinion at all, I guess it's that capguns gie a kid a sense of "My gun!", and he'll leave "Daddy's gun!" alone. It also gets his hands trained out of "fumble-itis", as well--he's got a start on handling real guns, later on, and will be safer.

The scariest thing I know of is a 25-year old guy in deer camp with his first rifle.

FWIW, Art
 
What a bunch of crap!

When I was a kid, I pointed toy guns at people when I played war. I knew enough about the differences between toy guns and real ones. So did the kids I played with.

When I was a kid I never pointed a real gun at anyone. I often carried a rifle or shotgun, unsupervised by any adult, when hunting and plinking with my friends.

I have a collection of ASP Red Guns that I and my children use for tactics training. My 12 year old daughter is smart enough to know the difference between a Red Gun and a real gun. She knows she can point a Red Gun at people during training and she also knows that it's unsafe to point a real gun at anyone at anytime, unless she intends to shoot him/her.


------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com



[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited October 02, 2000).]
 
Hi All

I agree with Shawn. I grew up tih toy guns and real guns and it was not difficult to tell them apart. My parents put my toy gun and the real gun side by side and had me note the diffirences between the two. If I was unsure whether a gun was real, I was not to touch it. We pointed toy guns at each other and went bang, and no adult ever decided to shoot any of us. How times have changed. The adults who watched us run around with toy guns were not there or not part of the game. It is in our nature to play like this when we are children, and outlawing or forbidding it is counterproductive. This is where the parent steps in and ensures that his/her child is aware of the diffirence between fantasy and reality. If you don't allow children to explore thier fantasies or don't allow teach them that there is a diffirence between that and reality the result is what we see today.

My children will be allowed to play with toy guns, and they will be shown how to use real guns. They will be taught the diffrence between reality and fantasy, and maybe just maybe, I can teach them common sense as well.

Jees, I forget what the authors name is, but there is a great book called the end of common sense. In common sense tends to be the solution for almost anything. We seem to have lost all common sense in this country

+++
 
I had cap pistols, tons of water pistols, a full-sized M-16 look-alike, and even an actual gun that was rendered unfirable (filled in barrel). We shot them at each other every week all year long.

We had BB guns too, and no one ever pointed them at each other.

Oooh, I forgot about the Walther-looking pellet guns that we nailed each other with.

Heck, I'm past 30 now, and we have suction-cup dart wars in the office.

You just don't try to involve people who don't know what's going on. Forget about being shot, it's just rude to shoot a stranger with a water pistol.
 
I tend to side with those who think toy guns are no problem. However, I have one concern.

All the playing with toy guns creates the bad gun handling hablts that we as adults have to overcome. Nearly everybody who is not experinced in gun handling tends to wrap their hand around the gun and put their finger on the trigger, first thing. I still have to concentrate to overcome that habit and think "never touch the trigger until ready to fire". Toy guns also create problems with watching where your muzzle is pointing.

I don't know a solution, other than rigorous training with the real thing.
 
Here's an interesting thought-

When did "toy guns" come about? I can not recall ever having seen or heard of anything like a toy gun before the '40s and '50s. Could toy guns be a cause for the relatively lax gun safety of the average american today?
 
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