Totally hypothetical, so don't freak out!

P

Pond James Pond

New member
I understand this may have safety implications but I am curious hence why I'm asking:

One of the draw-backs of the revolving carbine style BP gun is the smallish charge capacity compared to regular muzzle loader rifles.

So, I was wondering about this: if you loaded the roundball from the muzzle, seating it just shy of the forcing cone and meanwhile filled the entire cylinder with BP and sealing it with a suitable wad, would it work?

The problems I anticipate are: a different sized projectile for loading from the tighter muzzle end. The risk of an excessive charge with the extra 30% you could probably load. Perhaps a lack of performance because the powder is not tightly compressed by a lead plug being shoved on top of it. Loss of the repeating nature of a 6-shot cylinder.

What do you think?
Would it work? If so, would it be ill-advised and why?

If not, why not?

Once more, please note this is purely a question of curiosity as I have neither BP nor a revolving carbine so it's not something I'm about to run out and try!
 
eyes on you

I have been reading some of your posts. I will guess that owning a "rifle" in your local is permitted, but a pistol is not? Or at least more troublesome.

Another possibility is that you intend to hunt, and would like more than one shot before reloading, but are worried about not enough power for whatever you hunt.

I think you have the "loss of the repeating nature" right. I believe that the increased charge will only move the ball slightly. However the entire force will try to escape through the cylinder/forcing cone gap. Now perhaps that force will be reduced enough, because it is not compressed, so that it burns and does not explode. But the fireball would most certainly ignite any other loaded cylinder cavities, so you would get a chain-flame?

So in your quest for more power you are going to turn a revolver back into a muzzle loader and poke a ball down the barrel for each following shot? Presuming you would still have a hand or pistol after the first shot, how is this better than a single shot muzzle loader????

OK, I know this is hypothetical, but the disadvantages seem obvious. I vote for bad idea, but would like to know what you are 'shooting for' (bad pun...what your reason would be for this method).
 
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I think your idea would pose a huge squib load and position the
ball just ahead of the forcing cone...but it sure would be fun to
watch you do it, but from a distance :eek: :eek: :eek:
DON"T DO IT !
 
I would have to agree with the others . You would end up with to much pressure loss resulting in the ball not having suitable velocity OR not enough pressure to even clear the bore .
If as suggested your after multiple shots , why not build a revolving rifle . If the issue is really about having a cylinder loaded vs. having to load from the muzzle . Then might I suggest a swivel breech type rifle
 
And.....

Not having the ball seated with good contact with the charge can cause problems.

I am assuming you intend to cap the charge in the cylinder with a wad or something. It still leaves a gap which is essentially the length of the forcing cone.

Also hard to get compression just using a wad.

I hope I understand properly what you have in mind.

Is there perhaps a different approach? Consider the following.

I don't know what muzzle velocity one might expect from the weapon but my suspicion is that it is higher than the pistol of similar design but shorter barrel length.

That pistol is lethal to a human size target out to a respectable range. What would you do with more power?

If you are a right handed shooter, you might want to consider keeping your left hand aft of the chamber mouths.
 
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I say the ball will clear the bore and the gun most likely won't blow up. If the "loss of pressure" due to the cylinder gap was an issue, then why do our flintlocks work? Even with oversized touchholes.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I am not the only person in the world who experimented with black powder loads in modern pistol cartridges not knowing that black powder "has to be compressed" and yet failed to blow up the revolver that the ammo was shot in.
 
I have been reading some of your posts. I will guess that owning a "rifle" in your local is permitted, but a pistol is not? Or at least more troublesome.
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Not really. It's like this: guns can be bought with a licence. The licence requires a few hoops but nothing too bad. With that licence you can buy ammo or reactive components like powder/primers etc.

The exceptions are any guns that are either from 1869 or before or repro's thereof.

So I could buy a Kentucky Percussion repro and a Remington 1858 revolver no problem. No registration, nothing. However, there remains the bit about buying reactives such as BP and caps. I'd still need a licence for those, but wouldn't have one given the gun is unregistered.

The only way I can see shooting being possible is a range that provides BP and caps, lets you come with your gun and shoot away with your own projectiles and then go home again, with an empty gun, leaving all the "reactive" stuff at the range.

That is the only way I can see it being possible to shoot a BP gun bought through unrestricted commerce. And I have yet to encounter any place that does it. Hence I am reluctant to take the plunge even though I find it interesting and enticing.

That doesn't stop me from trying to acquire theoretical knowledge of how BP shooting works!!
 
Well then....

how much does a license cost? If that is possible and you meet all the required hoops, why not do it? I know, easy for me to say, I don't know all the hoops. But BP shooting seems to interest you, and as long as you have a place to shoot I am sure that you would enjoy it.

1. License or somewhere to legally obtain BP and caps.... Is it legal for a range to supply BP under the conditions you gave? Can you talk a range owner into the business opportunity that the BP club you are going to start, is going to provide him? If not, can a BP club buy powder and caps for member use?

2. Where to shoot.... Will a local land owner with a large ditch or other natural land depression or hill, which is unsuitable for farming and safe to shoot at, allow you to shoot there? Remember livestock, lead deposited in the ground, water sources etc. Range lead can be contained and reused to avoid polution issues with a land owner by using some type of trap. Also there is glorious noise. Better if livestock and houses are farther away.

3. Can BP arms be imported?... It would seem so, probably directly from Italy.

4. Who will be interested? ... This one is interesting. Local law enforcement already shoots somewhere. Logically they might see BP as fun, and have some authority to provide a place and the BP. However, you may know something that I don't. If you could assure yourself that they would support a BP club that would be good.

Also there might be hunting for some in the club. Not everyone's cup of tea. Again, what licenses to hunt and what and when, useful for you to know to sell membership interest.

I will bet you have already thought about these things, but others may have better/more ideas. It would be nice to have a BP club start in Estonia. Don't forget to refer others to this forum!
 
how much does a license cost? If that is possible and you meet all the required hoops, why not do it?
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This is the biggest hurdle. Having proven I know the law, and can shoot safely I can apply for a buying permit for anything, but there are storage requirements here and above a certain number you need to upgrade you storage facilities. I've reached that limit and I simply don't want to get a BP gun at the expense of something else. I like the other stuff I have and don't see myself selling something to make room for a BP gun as a registered gun. I enjoy the others too much and BP shooting is too great an unknown to do that.

1. License or somewhere to legally obtain BP and caps.... Is it legal for a range to supply BP under the conditions you gave? Can you talk a range owner into the business opportunity that the BP club you are going to start, is going to provide him? If not, can a BP club buy powder and caps for member use?
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This is really the only option right now and I'd let them look into the legality of the suggestion I made earlier. I understand it as legal, but they'd be the ones needed to go through the red-tape. So far no joy...

2. Where to shoot.... Will a local land owner with a large ditch or other natural land depression or hill, which is unsuitable for farming and safe to shoot at, allow you to shoot there? Remember livestock, lead deposited in the ground, water sources etc. Range lead can be contained and reused to avoid polution issues with a land owner by using some type of trap. Also there is glorious noise. Better if livestock and houses are farther away.
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Shooting any firearm is forbidden unless you're hunting or at a range. Shooting on private land is not allowed if it isn't a range. Any other situation better have a good reason, such as SD! So here I either need to find a range that is interested or does it already. Sadly most are indoor. BP seems like something to be done outside.

3. Can BP arms be imported?... It would seem so, probably directly from Italy.
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Yes, provided the country allows for their export. The guns that meet those date criteria, by and large, are unrestricted goods, like bullets and I can buy those from other countries. This bit is probably easiest.

4. Who will be interested? ... This one is interesting. Local law enforcement already shoots somewhere. Logically they might see BP as fun, and have some authority to provide a place and the BP. However, you may know something that I don't. If you could assure yourself that they would support a BP club that would be good.
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I'm sure some ranges would not mind BP being shot. They are a range after all. But will they provide the powder and caps? Probably not the ones I know so its all a bit chicken and egg!!

Also there might be hunting for some in the club. Not everyone's cup of tea. Again, what licenses to hunt and what and when, useful for you to know to sell membership interest.
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This I'd need to check but what I've understood from the hunting law is that larger game need to be shot with a cartridge of 6.5mm or over so this sort of implies CF guns.

So, in a nutshell, I've looked into the options and the best I can do right now is ask around and wait to see if they decide it sounds like fun/financially viable to do.
 
@ Pond, James Pond

Sir, I've seen many post from you with interest in Black Powder. Please
inform all of us on here just what stops you from obtain the necessary
items for the sport...what laws prevent this for you.

I'm not bashing, I'm (we), are very interested in knowing. Is the laws
of your country or other situations ?

Edit......I'm to late with this, I just saw the above post.
 
I'm curious what you'd intend to hunt and out to what range. Using a more energetic powder and a conical/bullet can easily take medium size game from these .44/.45 cal pistols. One fellow shot an adult pig and it went nose to tail through it.

There's even a few guys who have taken deer with these revolvers using just a ball. At 25 yds/m, using a more energetic powder, you'll be in the ball park of what a rifle has out at 100-125 yds/m and they typically get complete passthroughs.

I've also seen (on The High Road forum) a fellow who bought a carbine made from a Colt Walker. Really cool too!
 
I'm curious what you'd intend to hunt and out to what range.
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I have no intentions whatsoever at this stage.
It was just a "What if....?" moment.

The thought was prompted by some initial posts about the Remington carbine when some members suggested that, instead of having more power and velocity than an 1858 revolver, it might even have less because of the revolver-level BP charge trying to keep the ball going along the whole 18" barrel.

So projectile velocity in the carbine may have peaked before it even leaves the barrel rather than as it leaves the barrel.

I just wondered if my idea would mitigate that, but it seems not.
 
I'm no ballistics expert but to a certain point, the longer the expanding gas has to impart speed to the projectile, the better. To a point.

I looked at a map to refresh my perspective on Estonia's neighbors. To me it looks like Finland might be the next best place to see a BP firearm discharged if you can't find someone in Estonia.

Are there no BP clubs or hunters in Estonia? Perhaps you could make contact through this or another forum. My web search for BP clubs there and in Finland didn't turn up any clubs, but I didn't try multiple search engines.

What I did find on a site that will be polar opposites to most of us here, was a reference chart of gun laws in some countries. I am always interested in that, because it reminds me to be grateful. I'm pretty sure that they were diligent in their search for restrictions, however there may be better charts.

http://www.veganpeace.com/gun_control/gunlaws.htm

From their chart and your proximity, a Fin might be next best place. Although you might not be allowed to actually pull the trigger, you could experience the sights, smells and sounds. After that, you will be ..A. choosing which current firearm to sell, or B. upgrading your storage space. Might as well upgrade, you will want more than one. :;)
 
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Finland may well have clubs. Of course, though that adds a further cost: travel there and back.

I am almost 100% certain there are no BP clubs here. I am even more certain that there are no hunters shooting BP.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, my understanding of the law governing hunting is that hunting is based around cartridge fed firearms. Had the law stated only calibre restrictions one could surmise that BP/muzzleloaders were permitted but as it states a calibre cartridge restriction, I think it means centrefire only.
 
The thought was prompted by some initial posts about the Remington carbine when some members suggested that, instead of having more power and velocity than an 1858 revolver, it might even have less because of the revolver-level BP charge trying to keep the ball going along the whole 18" barrel.
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With black powder, I'm pretty sure the 18 inch barrel will have at least as high a velocity as the pistol length barrel. Black powder loves long barrels. A squib that has the ball stuck in the bore will not be your problem.

It is smokeless powder where the pressure tends to peak real fast and then the bullet is essentially just using up the residual pressure for the rest of the trip down the bore. That's why smokeless shotgun loads are so quiet compared to black powder shotgun loads. With the black powder loads, there still is substantial pressure in the barrel when the shot leaves the barrel.

Smokeless will squib if the pressures are too low. It needs pressure to burn efficiently. You can see this by setting fire to a small pile of smokeless with a match. It just sits there and burns up, surprisingly slowly.
Do the same with a pile of black powder and you won't be able to pull your hand away in time to keep from getting burned by the flash.

I have shot the Ruger Old Army with extremely small charges of black powder and they shoot the ball out of the gun. I'm talking about the amount of powder you would use to prime a flintlock.
I have also used a flintlock primer to put a small amount of powder in the chamber of my .36 rifle when I forgot to charge the gun with powder before ramming down the patched ball. Even this small amount of black powder shoots the ball out of the barrel with enough velocity to go over 100 yards while holding the barrel level.
 
With black powder, I'm pretty sure the 18 inch barrel will have at least as high a velocity as the pistol length barrel. Black powder loves long barrels. A squib that has the ball stuck in the bore will not be your problem.

It is smokeless powder where the pressure tends to peak real fast and then the bullet is essentially just using up the residual pressure for the rest of the trip down the bore. That's why smokeless shotgun loads are so quiet compared to black powder shotgun loads. With the black powder loads, there still is substantial pressure in the barrel when the shot leaves the barrel.

Smokeless will squib if the pressures are too low. It needs pressure to burn efficiently. You can see this by setting fire to a small pile of smokeless with a match. It just sits there and burns up, surprisingly slowly.
Do the same with a pile of black powder and you won't be able to pull your hand away in time to keep from getting burned by the flash.

I have shot the Ruger Old Army with extremely small charges of black powder and they shoot the ball out of the gun. I'm talking about the amount of powder you would use to prime a flintlock.
I have also used a flintlock primer to put a small amount of powder in the chamber of my .36 rifle when I forgot to charge the gun with powder before ramming down the patched ball. Even this small amount of black powder shoots the ball out of the barrel with enough velocity to go over 100 yards while holding the barrel level.
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My new favourite post. Nuff said!
 
One of the reasons a flintlock works is that the pressure builds faster then it can be released through the vent . The larger the vent , the higher the gas release and the lower the velocities.
So the question would be how much pressure would be lost around the cylinder gap ,and how much would that be increased do to what would in a since be a short started projectile .
With my Pietta 1860 , a 15 grain charge will jam a RB into the forcing cone . . Yet 15 grains in a 45 cal flintlock will move the ball down and out of the barrel with 5 to 10 grains being enough to dislodge a dray ball .
Revolving arms have been around for a very long time . With little research its not hard to document both side arms and shoulder arms to 150 years before colt .
Maybe someone could help me out here , but I fail to see the reasoning as to why one would want to do whats being ask . Where is the loop hole that would be achieved by doing this
 
Maybe someone could help me out here , but I fail to see the reasoning as to why one would want to do whats being ask . Where is the loop hole that would be achieved by doing this
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I've covered this in earlier posts. It is basically just curiosity driven by an interest in seeing if the revolving carbine could be made to perform a little better in terms of velocity given its relatively poor chamber-to-barrel ratio.

The reason I was enthused with B.L.E.'s post was that it suggested that the revolver's performance (whilst not a rifle's) was pretty potent and that the carbine's would be somewhat greater.

Whilst I like the carbine a great deal, I'd be a little disappointed if its shooting potential was less than that of a regular 1858 that weighed less and cost less, even if it ends up being a wall-hanger.

That's just me: when I buy I always do so with a "What if I ever need to..." set of considerations.
 
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