Top Break Question

[Rothdel]

I have always been enamored with top break revolvers but have never had the opportunity or the gumption to purchase one. Well that has changed and now I'm finding myself hesitating. I'm looking at the Uberti model #3 in .38 or 45lc.

I have experience with both rounds and have guns chambered in each. I like the 45 for pure shooting experience and the 38 for availability and price.

So here is the question. Are these guns safe to shoot with all commercially available (IE what you would find in a gander Mountain, Cabellas, Scheels, ect ect ect) non + P offerings for 38 or 45 lc?

If i got the 45 long colt could I shoot the defensive ammo that came out after the judge was introduced? Could I use loads designed for hunting? Or would I be relegated to cowboy action loads only? Same goes for 38 could I use self defense loads?

I have several single actions from Ruger and the thing I like the best about them is they will eat anything I throw at them. I do not hand load at the moment so off the shelf rounds for me.

 

[mehavey]

In the S&W New Model #3, use standard pressure/weight (14,000 CUP/250gr)45 Colt
That includes most all over-the-counter 45Colt, but NOT the likes of Super-Duper/Extra-Heavy
Corbon Whomp`em Stomp`em -- even tho' they might advertise "safe" in normal Colts)

250gr at 880-900 fps will kill about anything East of the Mississippi. No need to beat the gun/linkage up.

 

[James K]

The reason breaktops pretty much went away with the introduction of smokeless powder and high pressure loads is that (no matter what breaktop fans claim), breaktops eventually shoot loose. Why? Because no matter how small it is, there is a gap at the latch; there has to be for the gun to open. And every time the gun fires, that gap opens a little bit. With old low pressure ammunition and a quality gun, it will take a lot of firing for the gap to widen, but that round count will shorten as the power of the ammo increases. Period.

Jim

 

[DaleA]

I actually went to the SAMMI web site (for the first time!) and saw the .45 Colt pressures were LESS than the .38 Special pressures (Note: I COULD be reading the SAMMI site wrong)...so does this mean (I hope) that a .45 Colt breaktop would last longer than a .38 Special breaktop?

 

[Bob Wright]

Pressure is only one consideration, recoil another. The recoil generated by the .45 Colt will be greater than the .38 Special since you are throwing 255 grains of lead rather than 158 grains, both at approximately 870 fps.

Makes a difference.

Bob Wright

 

[dwwhite]

Remember that pressure acts equally across a given surface area. A .45 Colt round has a lot more surface area than a .38.


There's more to it than that, what with friction between case and cylinder walls, etc. but you get the idea.

For a ROUGH idea of relative stresses, multiply a .38's peak pressure by its case head area, and do the same thing for a .45.


Based on my rough estimate, and again, we're throwing out all other factors like friction etc, a .45 round at 14000 psi will generate about 15% more case head thrust than a .38 at 17000 psi.

As Bob said too, you have to account for that heavier bullet hitting the forcing cone, which also imparts stresses on the frame.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

First of all, some definitions.

#3 denotes frame size with the old S&W Top Breaks, not a specific model. Just like K frame today denotes the mid frame size, but does not define a specific model. The #3 size frame was the largest Top Break frame that S&W made and most of the models built of that size were either 44 or 45 caliber, although there were also smaller chamberings too on the large frame.

There were five specific models of Top Breaks built on the #3 frame. In order of their appearance, there was the American Model, the Russian Model, the Schofield, the New Model Number Three, and the 44 Double Action.

This is the American Model. First produced in 1870, this was the first Top Break of any sort that S&W made. It was chambered for the obsolete 44 American cartridge, which utilized a heeled bullet. A few were also chambered for the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge. As an identification feature, notice how straight 'up and down' the grip is.

There has never been a modern reproduction made of this model.

Next came the Russian Model. S&W produced many thousands of these, mostly for sale to the Russian government, also to Turkey and Japan. And some were sold domestically too. Easily recognized by the extra large hump on the grip (S&W calls this a 'knuckle'), as well as the spur on the trigger guard. Some shooters sawed the spur off because it served no practical purpose. Mostly chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, which the Russians stipulated have a bullet that fit inside the case, rather than a heeled bullet. A few were also chambered for 44 Henry Rimfire.

This one is a 2nd Model Russian, made in 1875.

Uberti makes a reasonable copy of the Russian model, chambered for 45 Colt, 44-40, 44 Russian and 38 Special.

I will caution you, that sharp point on the grip can be painful with a heavy recoiling cartridge if you don't keep it up above your hand. This one is chambered for 44 Russian, a very mild cartridge for such a big gun. But because of the reach to the hammer spur, I have to regrip to cock the hammer, then regrip again to get my palm below the spur. If I do not regrip, and fire the gun so that the point strikes my palm, it hurts.

This is the Schofield Model. Similar in appearance to the American Model, but the grip is shaped slightly differently, not quite as vertical. The other difference is, the Schofield was the only large Top Break that S&W made with the barrel latch mounted on the frame, not the top of the barrel extension like all the others. You can see the serpentine shaped latch in front of the hammer. S&W produced the Schofield to compete with the Colt Single Action Army for military contracts. There were only about 8,000 produced, all were chambered for the 45 Schofield cartridge, a 45 caliber round slightly shorter than the 45 Colt round.

This is a First Model Schofield, also made in 1875. It is more forgiving to shoot than the Russian Model because of the grip shape.

Uberti makes a nice replica of the Schofield model, chambered for 45 Colt, 44-40, 44 Russian and 38 Special. Avoid the ASM Schofields, they had problems.

This is the New Model Number Three. This was the epitome of large frame S&W Top Break design. The small knuckle on the grip serves to keep the hand in place on the grip during recoil, much like the knuckle does on a modern S&W revolver. I find that I have to regrip slightly with all my #3 Smiths because of the distance to the hammer spur and the way the spur always points straight up. But the New Model Number Three is the most comfortable to shoot.

This one was made in 1882, and refinished at the factory in 1965, that is why it looks so good. It is chambered for 44 Russian, the most common chambering of the New Model Number Three. The New Model Number Three was also chambered for many other cartridges. Records were made by target shooters shooting the New Model Number Three that have never been broken.

Beretta markets a replica of the New Model Number Three they call the Laramie. It is actually manufactured by Uberti, a subsidiary of Beretta. I do not know if the Laramie is currently being produced, but there are some available on the used market. All the Laramie revolvers have an adjustable rear sight, not a standard feature on the originals. I believe it is/was chambered for 45 Colt and 38 Special.

The last of the five Top Break revolvers built on the #3 sized frame was the 44 Double Action. This one is a target model, made in 1895. It is chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, the most common chambering of the model. This model was also chambered for many other cartridges.

There have never been any modern replicas made of the 44 Double Action.

***


So much for the history of the #3 sized Top Breaks. All of the replicas being made today in Italy are proofed in Government run proof houses. European proofing standards are actually slightly stricter than American standards, and all of the modern replicas can be safely fired with SAAMI spec ammunition. They do not have to be restricted to 'cowboy' ammunition. By the same token, they should not be fired with 'Ruger Only' loads, or any of the hot self defense loads. SAAMI MAX spec only.

Regarding them shooting loose, with the originals, absolutely. The iron (not always steel, often iron) frames of the originals could easily be shot loose with Smokeless ammo, even mild loads. I have another 44 Double Action that was shot loose when I bought it, but an expert gunsmith was able to tighten it up. I NEVER shoot Smokeless ammo in my antiques, only Black Powder.

While the replicas are made of modern steel, they probably will shoot loose over time if subjected to the pounding of a lot of heavy recoil. On the other hand, I know several cowboy shooters who have shot their Schofield reproductions for years with no problems. I suspect they are only shooting 'cowboy' ammo but I do not know that for sure.


A couple more things. Although the replicas are chambered for 45 Colt, S&W NEVER chambered any of their Top Breaks for that cartridge, including the Schofields that were made around the year 2000.

Lastly, because of design changes related to lengthening the cylinders to accept cartridges the length of 45 Colt and 44-40, the modern replicas do not do well with Black Powder, tending to bind up rather quickly from fouling deposited on the cylinder arbor. The originals were designed for Black Powder and can shoot it all day long.

 

[Rothdel]

Wow thanks for all the info folks. This place is a wealth of knowledge and experiance.

Just to be clear I'm not looking for a home defense weapon or a hunting gun. My goal with the question was not to find out if I could run the hottest heaviest round I could find through one of these. Given that I don't reload ( I live in a small apartment) I'm reliant on what I can find in the local stores. If I go with a .38 all i'm going to find in my area are large manufacturers ball ammo or self defense loads. I was not sure if those were safe to shoot. If they were not then I would need to pass on the gun. Thank you all for help.

 

[mehavey]

Again, normal-pressure 38 Special and 45 Colt ammunition.
Just about all manufacturers make their bones putting out
gobs & gobs of lead and plated-lead ball ammo to this effect.

As far as hunting goes, this type of 38 Special will take any small game;
and the 45 Colt will take up through deer -- and anything else deer-sized
(hint) -- no problem.

 

[DaleA]

Wow Driftwood, thanks for all the info and the very nice pictures.

I admit the movie 'Unforgiven' is what got me thinking about a top break revolver.

I like the idea of them but don't like so much the lack of strength.

Thanks again for the information.

 

[rightside]

Beautiful weapons. Thanks for sharing. Regardless of the shortcomings, that Russian has always fascinated me. More so than all the others. Just a personal thing I suppose.

 

[Jim Watson]

Lastly, because of design changes related to lengthening the cylinders to accept cartridges the length of 45 Colt and 44-40, the modern replicas...

What about the originals?
S&W never made a .45 Colt but they did eventually lengthen the cylinder to handle .44-40 and a very few .38-40s. They seem not to have been very popular, they used a good number of 1 9/16" cylinders for .44 Russian as well as the original 1 7/16".

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

What about the originals?
S&W never made a .45 Colt but they did eventually lengthen the cylinder to handle .44-40 and a very few .38-40s. They seem not to have been very popular, they used a good number of 1 9/16" cylinders for .44 Russian as well as the original 1 7/16".

And that raises a very interesting story.

In 1870 the Army bought 1000 S&W American model revolvers, chambered for the 44 S&W American cartridge. This was the first cartridge revolver adopted by the US military. Nominal cylinder length of the these revolvers was 1.45".

In 1874 the Army purchased 8000 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge. Nominal length of the 45 Colt cartridge at that time was 1.625". Prior to purchasing the Colts, the Army had field tested the American and Russian models, and they had passed all firing and functioning tests. However the Army felt the strength and simplicity of the Colt design would better suit their needs. The Army felt the S&W mechanism was too complicated and had too many parts.

S&W was running at maximum capacity at this time, producing the Russian model for foreign governments, eventually producing over 150,000 Russian revolvers. But they did not want to miss out on a potentially lucrative US Army contract. The Army was firm by this time in wanting a 45 caliber sidearm, not a 44 caliber sidearm such as the American or Russian models. The problem was, S&W tooling at the time was set up for a cylinder roughly 1 7/16" in length. Too short to accept the 45 Colt cartridge. So S&W proposed an alternative cartridge; the Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45 M1875, with an OAL of 1.438" (1 7/16"). This shorter cartridge could also be chambered and fired in the Colt revolver, just as a modern 38 Special round can be chambered and fired in any 357 Magnum revolver. They tooled up for a new revolver to be chambered for the new 45 caliber cartridge. This was the Schofield model, and the new round eventually became known as the 45 Schofield cartridge. The Schofield model also featured the new latching system developed by Col. George Schofield. The Army purchased 3000 Schofield model revolvers in 1875. In 1877, after a few minor changes to the gun, the Army purchased another 5000 Schofields.

I could go on about the speculation about 45 Colt ammunition accidentally being issued to units armed with the Schofield revolvers. Obviously, the shorter cylinder of the S&W revolver could not accept the longer rounds. But that is outside the scope of my story. Regardless, eventually all the Schofield revolvers were surplussed out.

1 7/16" remained the standard cylinder length for #3 revolvers, up through the early and middle years of production of the New Model Number Three and the 44 Double Action. The examples of these revolvers in my photos have 1 7/16" cylinders and both are chambered for the short 44 Russian cartridge. But eventually S&W learned from their mistake with the short 45 Schofield cartridge and began making these revolvers with 1 9/16" long cylinders that could accept longer cartridges such as 38-40 and 44-40. The key here is that S&W not only made the cylinders of these models longer, they also 'stretched' the frame the extra 1/8" to accommodate the longer cylinders. More about that later.

This would be a good time to show the relative lengths of the cartridges we have been talking about. Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44 Russian, 44 American, 44 Henry Rimfire, and 44-40. The 45 Colt and Schofield rounds are very early copper cased, Benet primed rounds. We can discuss Benet priming some other time.

Now, let's talk for a moment about the modern replicas chambered for longer rounds such as 45 Colt and 44-40.

What Uberti did when they tooled up for their modern replicas is they made a longer cylinder that would accept the longer rounds. But they did not lengthen the frame a corresponding amount as S&W had done. Instead, they were able to fit the longer cylinder into a frame no longer than the originals by shortening the gas collar at the front of the cylinder. A long gas collar is critical for successfully shooting Black Powder in a revolver, it shields the cylinder pin or arbor from fouling blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap. Fouling deposited onto a cylinder pin or arbor is the reason some revolvers bind up when fired with Black Powder.

This is a photo of the cylinder of my New Model Number Three. Notice the prominent bushing pressed into the front of the cylinder. It stands about .170 proud of the face of the cylinder.

Here is a photo of the cylinder assembled into the revolver. The bushing butts against the frame. This offsets the barrel cylinder gap horizontally from the opening at the front of the bushing. In this way, the underlying arbor is protected from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap.

Here is another photo showing the interrelationship of the parts. The spring loaded ejector rod slides inside the hollow arbor, while the bushing slides over it.

Compare the length of the short gas bushing on the front of this replica Schofield.

When assembled, the short bushing is not long enough to effectively shield the arbor from fouling blasted out of the Barrel/Cylinder gap. These revolvers do fine with Smokeless, but because of the short bushing they tend to bind up quickly when fired with Black Powder.

Getting back to Jim Watson's comment, yes the longer 1 9/16" cylinders were eventually used for all calibers in the New Model Number Three and 44 Double Action, even when chambered for short cartridges like 44 Russian. There were only 2072 New Model Number Three Frontier revolvers, chambered for 44-40, manufactured, and only 74 (yes 74) New Model Number Three 38 Winchester revolvers (38-40), manufactured. The rarest of all the #3 revolvers.

The 44 Double Action Frontier, chambered for 44-40 sold pretty well, 15,340 of them were made. But only 276 of the 38 Winchester Double Action (38-40) were made.

Why so few? I don't know. Either the public was not interested in them, or S&W did not want to make very many. I do not know.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I admit the movie 'Unforgiven' is what got me thinking about a top break revolver.

In a recent magazine article, Roy Jinks, the official Smith and Wesson historian, stated that it was not until the Clint Eastwood movie Unforgiven came out that the large frame S&W Top Break revolvers got much notice from Hollywood. Since that time almost every non-collector that has called him about a Top Break has said they have a Schofield.

I must admit that when I first saw my New Model Number Three in the display cabinet of a local gun shop, I too thought it was a Schofield.

I have since learned that all Schofields are Number Threes. But not all Number Threes are Schofields.

 

[DaleA]

Great information Driftwood.

I wonder if S&W ever did anything for Clint Eastwood ('Unforgiven' - the Schofield, 'Dirty Harry' series - Model 29)? Like maybe give him a chunk of stock or an honorary board of directors post or something?

 

[Jim Watson]

The first big topbreak I saw in a movie was in Nevada Smith, ca 1966.
I think a Schofield but it is not on imfdb to check.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

A little bit of internet snooping brought this up.

And this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQSSbTS4WQ

Now I'll have to watch the movie again.


And of course there was this guy in the recent remake of 3:10 to Yuma.

 

[hartcreek]

To watch the movie again just watch the vid in the link as the movie comes up next.....Now as to topic there are other topbreaks of original vintage that may be safe for you to shoot if you so desire. .38 S&W and lesser calibers are not so damaging on the latch so you could pick up a top break made by Ivar Johnson, Herrington and Richardson, Smith and Wesson or many others in the cowboy design and be fine or if it is just top breaks you like you could find something sturdier such as an Enfield or Webbley that was produced in the WWII era.

 

[jdscholer]

I've always thought that the top breaks were soooo cool. The smaller ones in 38 S&W such as hartcreek mentions are still pretty gettable at prices that won't break the bank. I've got a couple, and they've brought me great pleasure and good shooting.

I kinda missed the boat on getting a 44 DA that was in very good condition, but always just a little more money than I wanted to spend. I hem hawed for probably four years, and the guy just sold it for a grand. When I first saw it he was asking $450.

Anyone who has an original #3 is a lucky guy, and if Driftwood owns those that he has pics of, he a big hero in my book. jd

 

[44 AMP]

If i got the 45 long colt could I shoot the defensive ammo that came out after the judge was introduced? Could I use loads designed for hunting? Or would I be relegated to cowboy action loads only?

One of the modern reproductions in .45 Colt should handle the "standard" 255gr load (the black powder equivalent 900-950fps). IF it is a good gun.

Sadly, not all of them are. The Ubertis have a good reputation, and, of course, if it comes from S&W you can count on it.

However, there are others, not so good. I had one of the No.3s in .45 colt, from ASM (Armi San Marcos). Looked good. worked like crap.

Only two cylinders fired, standard factory ammo, came unlatched at least once on each cylinder, and misfired once as well. That one ...went away...

I still have a top break, but its not much like the S&W...