Tom Clancy's hijacked airliner

If you ever have the chance to do cqc training in a mock airliner don't pass it up it will be the best trainning you could ever imagine. It is great in two parts one the shooting, moving and communicating in the close, compact aisles and seats, and also the fact that there are by standards to watch out for. It was the hardest challenge of any trainning i have ever done and each time is a great test of team work and also, how you are on an individual basis.
 
Clancy's novels

That chapter is a great reason why Police should be allowed to be armed ALL the time, EVERYWHERE. Including aircraft.
 
There are a few places where it makes sense to only allow law enforcement to carry. Schools and courts come to mind. As far as airliners go I think it'd be best to let each airline make its' own rules on that. Second ammendment or not any company has the right to bar you from entering a building or stepping aboard a vehicle of theirs if they don't want firearms on it. I highly doubt that any airline would allow passengers to carry guns if they had the choice. I think allowing pilots would be hit or miss among the various airlines but I would imagine they'd allow armed air marshalls.
 
start with police, ...

Let me ammend my statement. The trick to getting national concealed carry reciprocity is in place, it's called Act 218. 218 allows police to carry nationwide. Next, we have to get that extended to include carrying on aircraft. With 218 in place, the door is cracked open to begin lobbying for national recognition of CCW licenses. Everyone with a valid driver license may drive a vehicle anywhere in this country, why not the same recognition for our concealed permits? Both documents are issued by the state, and require proof of training. Any NRA members that know of any bills going through Congress on this subject, let me know.
 
While that's understandable, I would still never fly on any airline that allowed civilians to carry firearms on board. A single bullet piercing a bulkhead can take down an airliner. The pilots should be allowed to carry assuming they recieve the proper training; an armed cop would worry me but not nearly as much as a civilian. Even if by some miracle the federal government recognizes a national right to carry, I still would be in favor of airlines barring any firearms on board (not in luggage, of course, just in the cabin).


edit: one note, just because a license of any kind is issued by the state does NOT mean that the person carrying said license is properly trained

How long did your driving test take? The test for my Florida license took fifteen minutes and I could've passed it with a mere couple of hours behind the wheel. There are people who can't even read english, and thus road signs, who are given a license to drive.

Just because the state says someone can do perform a task safely does not mean it's true. Is all CCW training the same in every state?
 
While the debate whether CCW permitees should be allowed to carry onboard an airliner can go on, let me set a myth to rest... or at least beat it back a bit.

Since when has Hollywood gotten much right about anything? Especially about firearms?!? One round from a handgum will NOT bring down an airliner. Heck, several rounds out of a handgun won't bring one down. It will NOT cause an explosive decompression and drag a fat, megalomaniacal, criminal genius out the window! (sorry Mr. Bond) Fire off a 9mm at the side or a window and you will see... a 9mm hole and a bit of a sucking sound. A .45 and you will get a .45 inch hole... etc. There are several "holes" scattered about all airliners that are bigger that the hole from a .500 S&W! Unless the bullet happened to punture just the wrong system not much would happen to the aircraft and all airlines have multiple systems backing eachother up. No sudden loss of control because Steve Segal's trusty 9mm went off pointing in the wrong direction. A DHL Airbus A310 airliner was hit by a MANPAD and managed to land without any injuries or further damage. Shooting a firearm within an airliner will not cause any of the Hollywood situations. The problem isn't the hardware of the aircraft but the software of the humans. As Sean Connery playing Capt. Ramius said in "Hunt for Red October",,, "Remember, Ryan. There are things in there which don't take kindly to bullets." :)

Mythbusters did a "bang up job" on this myth a while back. I'll add my 17,000+ hours flying the things around, plus a little of law enforcement experiance to confirm their "findings". :cool:
 
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So a pressurized cabin at thirty thousand feet will react to a hole in the bulkhead in exactly the same way as it would if it was on the ground?
 
A single bullet piercing a bulkhead can take down an airliner.
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Absolutely incorrect.
So a pressurized cabin at thirty thousand feet will react to a hole in the bulkhead in exactly the same way as it would if it was on the ground?
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If the inside to outside pressure differential is the same as it would be at altitude (as it was in the test) then YES.

There have been cases when entire sections of fuselage have blown out of airliners at altitude. In the one case I can remember offhand, the only casualties were the people sitting in the seats that were attached to the section of the aircraft that fell off and one flight attendant. The plane landed safely.

Planes are a good deal more resistant to damage than most people think. You could turn the passenger cabin into swiss cheese with the only losses being the people who were actually hit with bullets.
 
Hm... let me see... Pressure differentual on the ground - Zero psi. Pressure differentual at 30,000 - 7.6 psi. On the ground with a 9mm hole in the side... no sucking sound. At 30.000... sucking sound. Yes, there is a difference.

The aft outflow valve on a Boeing 737-300 is about 16 inches wide and can open to about 8 inches across. The forward outflow valve is about 1 inch in diameter. The sink drains in the side are about 1/4 x 1/2 inch. My point is that there are already several "holes" in the aircraft, adding a couple more small holes will not affect the aircraft's intergrity. A Boeing 747 can loss a passenger window at cruise altitude and the pressurization system will be able to keep the cabin pressurized to a normal level... it would, however tend to muss up anyone's hair style that is sitting within a couple of rows. I have had door seals on airliners blow and all that happens is a high pitched screech.

Hollywood has a cop shoot a suspect with a .40S&W and the suspect does a complete flip and flies through the plate glass window 20 feet away. Having the suspect respond normally of maybe dropping to his knees and then lying down just isn't as dramatic. Nor is the more realistic scene of the bad guy/wacko firing off a round off in a cabin and... nothing happens. Darn it!!!
 
Yes, there is a difference.
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The test was constructed so that the pressure differential was identical to what it would be at altitude.

Redworm,

PSI = POUNDS per SQUARE INCH.

10 psi isn't much if you're only talking about one square inch, it's a lot of you're talking about hundreds of square feet of fuselage area. For every square foot of fuselage 10psi means that there are over 1400 pounds of pressure pushing outward.
 
One of the incidents with the top of the cabin comming off was an Aloha Airlines B737-200 (another was a United B747-100 which lost it's fwd cargo door) which had suffered metal fatique and the top ripped off while at 24,000. The top ripped away from the flight deck door to about row 7. The only fatality was the number 2 flight attendant (Clarabelle Lansing) who was standing in the asile at about row 5. The number 1 flight attendant had been standing just aft of the flight deck door and had been knocked to the floor and badly hurt by the flight deck door and the roof ripped away, but had not been dragged anywhere. The number 3 flight attendant, who was standing in the asile at about row 15, was knocked to the floor, but not dragged towards the opening. I have the accident report here and the tear which started the catastrophic failure of the cabin was about 6 feet long and maybe 1/4 inch wide. This crack was apparently there for several flights prior to the failure. But, being along the top, was not readily visable from the ground when the pilots performed their preflight inspections. By the way, Boeing completely redesigned the way that they make the fuselage of their aircraft since and all exsisting 737's of that vintage have been heavily modified. I flew a sister ship of the Aloha bird, it had so many rivets and plates that it looked more like an iron ship than an aluminium airplane! ;)
 
There are a few places where it makes sense to only allow law enforcement to carry. Schools and courts come to mind
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The only armed folk were police folk at Columbine. Fat lot of good that did.
 
Perhaps I should clarify. The only visitors of a school with guns should be law enforcement. Give teachers that want it the proper training and it changes the argument a bit (although it'd be a stupid idea to have a teacher with a gun that can't keep the students from taking the weapon). I dunno, what do you guys think of it? Kinda of a strange subject, really...kids should be protected but arming teachers and students seems like a ridiculously stupid idea.


Ah, another reason education should be privatized. Private schools can have a security force of their choosing and allow or ban whatever types of weapons they like. Despite being corrected on a bullet being able to take down a plane, I still wouldn't fly on any airline that allowed guns in the cabin for anyone but pilots and air marshalls.


edit: I also find it funny that Columbine is the only school ever mentioned when school shootings come to mind...it wasn't the first nor the most recent nor even the most horrific. Why does it stick out in people's minds? Because rich white kids died as opposed to lower class blacks and hispanics.
 
Reading that excerpt reminds me why I don't buy Clancy's books anymore. His books take so long to get through because he puts in so much unnecessary crap. I guess his books would be a whole lot smaller if it was just action, action, action. In the end, the good guys always win despite rediculous odds. Its kind of like Rambo, the one man army!

Anyways, For you guys pushing for anyone being allowed to carry on a plane, get real. You are assuming that everyone is a level headed law abiding citizen. What if the bad guys are the only ones carrying? What if there aren't enough good guys carrying? What if there is a shoot out and a bunch of people get killed, including the good guys? What if the terrorist then take control of the airplane and then ram it into another building FULL of people. Don't forget how lucky we were that 9/11 occured early in the morning rather than later in the day. The death toll would have been at least 10 times greater. I know how gung ho we can be about pushing for our right to carry but airplanes are a bad idea.

You guys are assuming that all cops are good guys. What about sleeper cells or converts? Don't forget about the US soldier who threw a grenade in the mess hall in Iraq. Besides, how many cops can hit the broad side of a barn? Just because they have a gun doesn't mean they know how to use it. If they are SWAT or happen to be a gun enthusiast, then maybe. But how would you go about approving one and not the other? It is much better to have a specially trained sky marshall who is carry frangible ammo to minimize incidental damage.

Like it or not, there really are places better off where guns are restricted. If you don't like it, you can drive. Just make sure to avoid the states that don't have reciprocity for your permit. You might find that it is rather hard to get around. Forget about flying internationally since most countries don't have such liberal gun policies. I carry a mini Maglight or a Surefire L2, either of which can be used as a kubaton in a pinch. I travel quite a bit and have had no problems carrying either. Airlines prohibit pretty much everything else including firarms, knives of any length (pretty much any sharp object including screwdrivers), and defensive sprays such as mace and pepper spray. I don't know about Tazers but I would assume those are also prohibited. If you are really that concerned, don't fly.
 
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Schools

In Utah where I live, CCW holders CAN carry into public schools.I beleive this is a very good thing. If someone comes into my kids school and starts shooting, I hope every visiting parent is carrying, along with all of the teachers. When was the last school shooting you heard about where the perp was a visiting CCW holder ? (even if the victims were "poor blacks and hispanics")
 
Despite being corrected on a bullet being able to take down a plane, I still wouldn't fly on any airline that allowed guns in the cabin for anyone but pilots and air marshalls.
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What makes some guy wearing a costume (airline pilot) or a piece of tin on his shirt so trustworthy and incapable of doing wrong thereby granting him some special priviledge to carry a gun inside an aircraft? What if the late Yasser Arafat walked in there wearing a mailing tube that looked like an rpg (the average joe won't know the difference..trust me.) slung across his back with a red tennis ball grenade, some belts of ammo with plastic dummy rounds around his neck and a BIG honkin wooden hilt that looked like a ceremonial viking sword? And all while in his traditional headgear. Would that be reason to run away screaming like a little girl with eyes and mouth wide open and pee going down the pant leg just because he wore a dish cleanin rag on his head?

Just curious. How DO you use those kubatons anyway? You cant really give someone a good wallop over the head with it since its so small and made of all things a really light aluminum alloy. Its not sharp and has those nice little ridges for better grip. A $100 bill wrapped around it works better for this. I see it used as one of those 'speed passes' used at the gas station where you touch or wave the thing near the pump. Do you say magic words too?
 
I remember seeing a decompression experiment on Mythbusters. Gunfire won't take down an airplane.


Mythbusters
Episode 10
Feb. 22, 2004
"Explosive Decompression, Frog Giggin', Rear Axle"
Explosive decompression can occur when a bullet is fired through the fuselage of a pressurized airplane.
Busted
The pressure is not high enough and the hole is too small. Even when a sizable hole was blown in the fuselage with explosives, the rush of air was nowhere near powerful enough to suck Buster out of the hole.

reguy :)
 
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