Tokarev
- Thread starter kh1911
- Start date
I have the Zastava M70 Tok, and am NO expert, just have my own limited experience.
Got mine from an internet source that had a bunch of them, and the question was, milsurp or new mfg? Wanting a real ComBloc I went milsurp but that also included the aftermarket safety not part of the orig Tok design. Apparently the safety is required for US import.
It its a fun pistol. Overall, I prefer my CZ52 to the Zastava - both fire the Tok cartridge, but you can't beat a reliable $200 bit of ComBloc history.
Got mine from an internet source that had a bunch of them, and the question was, milsurp or new mfg? Wanting a real ComBloc I went milsurp but that also included the aftermarket safety not part of the orig Tok design. Apparently the safety is required for US import.
It its a fun pistol. Overall, I prefer my CZ52 to the Zastava - both fire the Tok cartridge, but you can't beat a reliable $200 bit of ComBloc history.
Get CZ 52. You can also get 9mm conversion barrel for I and shoot both.
Better ergonomics and built quality
http://youtu.be/yAKpDuEi3Qg
http://youtu.be/7qk7mv2ovno
Better ergonomics and built quality
http://youtu.be/yAKpDuEi3Qg
http://youtu.be/7qk7mv2ovno
Cheapshooter
New member
I have both, plus a Polish, and a CZ52. I enjoy shooting all four, and they each have been reliable, and accurate enough to be fun.
Two big differences in the Romanian, and Yugo are the Yugo M57 has a longer grip with one more round capacity, and a much better safety than the after thought safety put on the other two to be able to import them.
I don't know how many tokarevs and CZ52s I have, but half the CZ52 are blown into little pieces from the design and manufacturing defects; 1) Thin chambers, 2) wildly fluctuating RC hardness from barrel to barrel.
The book on Tokarev collecting by John Remling, is as hard to find as a Vietnam bring back Tokarev.
I have converted and helped a couple others to convert 9x19mm Tokarev barrels to 9x23mm. The Win brass is stronger than the Starline brass.
I have converted one Tokarev to use a 308 Parker Hale sniper trainer barrel.
That is in a hard Chrome Chinese, one of my favorites.
The book on Tokarev collecting by John Remling, is as hard to find as a Vietnam bring back Tokarev.
I have converted and helped a couple others to convert 9x19mm Tokarev barrels to 9x23mm. The Win brass is stronger than the Starline brass.
I have converted one Tokarev to use a 308 Parker Hale sniper trainer barrel.
That is in a hard Chrome Chinese, one of my favorites.
You might consider looking around to see if you can find a Polish Tokarev. I've examined Romanian, Yugoslavian (both surplus M57 and new-made M70A), Chinese, and Polish Tokarevs and while all would probably be equally functional, the fit and finish on the Polish ones have always seemed the nicest to me.
I think, in all fairness, you should probably mention exactly how your CZ-52's were blown up. As I recall, you conducted destruction tests with ammunition loaded well beyond proof pressures in both guns and the CZ happened to give way first. With factory or surplus ammo (or handloads within the pressure specs of the cartridge), neither a Tokarev or CZ-52 is particularly likely to blow up.
I think, in all fairness, you should probably mention exactly how your CZ-52's were blown up. As I recall, you conducted destruction tests with ammunition loaded well beyond proof pressures in both guns and the CZ happened to give way first. With factory or surplus ammo (or handloads within the pressure specs of the cartridge), neither a Tokarev or CZ-52 is particularly likely to blow up.
I did not blow up any CZ52s with factory ammo, but one blew up with factory ammo at my range, and there was an injury.
One of the CZ52s I blew up very close to published load, but that powder company later revised the loads to much lower. The AA book in 2000 had what Quickload calculates to be 64kpsi and later [~ 2005] revised to what calculates to be 23 kpsi.
I have since found a pistol with thinner chamber walls than the CZ52, the Kel-Tec P3AT, but the little 380 is heat treated to a high strength, and tightly controlled RC hardness.
At the jet propulsion laboratory's calibrated RC hardness tester, we measured my CZ52 barrels varying between from RC25 to RC47.
That and the deep roller relief cut below the chamber that undermines the thickness of the chamber are the two main problems.
One of the CZ52s I blew up very close to published load, but that powder company later revised the loads to much lower. The AA book in 2000 had what Quickload calculates to be 64kpsi and later [~ 2005] revised to what calculates to be 23 kpsi.
I have since found a pistol with thinner chamber walls than the CZ52, the Kel-Tec P3AT, but the little 380 is heat treated to a high strength, and tightly controlled RC hardness.
At the jet propulsion laboratory's calibrated RC hardness tester, we measured my CZ52 barrels varying between from RC25 to RC47.
That and the deep roller relief cut below the chamber that undermines the thickness of the chamber are the two main problems.
The Yugo will have better fit and finish on average, a better importer-added safety, a longer grip, and a 9-round magazine capacity. The downside to the Yugo Tokarevs is that they can't accept any of the standard Tok magazines. The Russian, Polish, Romanian, and Chinese Toks use plentiful and inexpensive 8-round mags.
I would take a Yugo over a Romanian, even though the non-standard grip of the Yugo looks off to me. The Romanian specimens I've handled have been of a clearly inferior fit and finish, though I'm sure they'll get the job done. If the history of the particular gun you're buying is unimportant to you, just get a Zastava M57, the current-production Serbian Tokarev. You can find them not much more than $200 new (like at Bud's).
If you want an actual surplus gun, then I'd suggest looking for a Polish Tok, as someone else suggested. The Polish guns have the best fit and finish by a good margin. They're also the most expensive, however.
Get both!
By the way, those 9mm conversion barrels are like hen's teeth these days. Good luck finding one. And if you find one, it will likely cost well more than the gun itself. (I'd buy one if they were available at a reasonable price, but in all honesty, I've never really understood the appeal. What makes a CZ 52 fun is shooting the super-loud, fireball-throwing 7.62x25mm round. I love 9mm, but I've got plenty of guns for that round.)I don't know why so many CZ 52 and Tokarev fans take such a partisan either/or approach to these guns. I love them both. I'm no expert on them, but neither my CZ nor those of people I know have shown any sign of being on the verge of exploding. Yes, if you're playing with way-overpressure hand loads, you will blow a CZ 52 earlier than a Tok, since the Tok has a significantly thicker chamber. On the other hand, the CZ will handle a diet of hot ammo (but not dangerously hot) well past when it will beat a Tok to death, since the CZ's frame and slide are built more stoutly.
Anyway, they're both ridiculously fun and relatively cheap guns. Don't be swayed by each gun's overzealous loyalists.
Pico,
I took that long barrel to the range 2-12-2006 and shot a couple groups with S&B factory 85 gr Tokarev ammo, although the reamer was 30 Mauser.
Good thing I write range reports, or I would not remember anything
1) 30 Mauser rifle with M8-4x Leupold scope, S&B ammo and then Polish surplus ammo.
a) S&B ammo
1.3" 5 shot group at 50 yards
2.33" 5 shot group at 100 yards [could barely see the target with 4x scope]
b) Polish 1955 surplus ammo 4.8" 19 shot group at 50 yards
That barrel cost $38 from Numrich and it got one trip to the range.
It did take some effort to put it on the Tokarev.
I took that long barrel to the range 2-12-2006 and shot a couple groups with S&B factory 85 gr Tokarev ammo, although the reamer was 30 Mauser.
Good thing I write range reports, or I would not remember anything
1) 30 Mauser rifle with M8-4x Leupold scope, S&B ammo and then Polish surplus ammo.
a) S&B ammo
1.3" 5 shot group at 50 yards
2.33" 5 shot group at 100 yards [could barely see the target with 4x scope]
b) Polish 1955 surplus ammo 4.8" 19 shot group at 50 yards
That barrel cost $38 from Numrich and it got one trip to the range.
It did take some effort to put it on the Tokarev.
Attachments
Cheapshooter
New member
BINGO!!!
And just where in the OP was the CZ52 mentioned?
Although just being used for shooting at the range the safety isn't as big an issue as it would be if carried, I prefer the 1911 style safety of the Yugoslavia M57 over the original design of the Romanian TTC with the poorly designed trigger block safety added to allow importation into the U.S..
CS,
Well, I was among the first to mention the CZ52, and you are correct, the CZ was NOT mentioned in the original post.
But in discussing Tokarev, one can be discussing the pistol and the round bearing the same name. The Tok round, 7.62x25, is a fun round in its own right.
Tok pistols are interesting -the modular fire control system is a neat idea and one I had not seen before- but otherwise in terms of build, fit and finish, the gun world has passed them by.
The Tok pistol is a prime example of classic ComBloc weapon design. The stuff works, but you probably won't be passing a Tok pistol to the grandkids.
Well, I was among the first to mention the CZ52, and you are correct, the CZ was NOT mentioned in the original post.
But in discussing Tokarev, one can be discussing the pistol and the round bearing the same name. The Tok round, 7.62x25, is a fun round in its own right.
Tok pistols are interesting -the modular fire control system is a neat idea and one I had not seen before- but otherwise in terms of build, fit and finish, the gun world has passed them by.
The Tok pistol is a prime example of classic ComBloc weapon design. The stuff works, but you probably won't be passing a Tok pistol to the grandkids.
madmo44mag
New member
I have once of each.
I like the Yugo better.
Better fit and finish.
If you can find a Russian TT33 I would suggest that over either on of the others.
For some reason the TT's have a better trigger pull too them.
Model12Win
Moderator
I just bought a Zastava M70A, haven't shot it but they are supposedly great pistols for the money. I bought it because it was in 9mm, which is half as expensive as 7.62x25mm these days. I also just really wanted a Tokarev. These are new production guns, not surplus. They have a good quality Beretta M92 style slide safety. Also, they come with a magazine safety but it's super easy to remove. Just take the grips off and you will see it, pry it up and it should snap right off on it's own. That way you don't have to worry about it failing and it also allows drop free mags. Very cool!
Cheapshooter
New member
I do, an East German Mak, and a P-64, and a CZ82. But none of them shoot 7.62X25!
Also, they weren't in the OP's question either.
cougar gt-e
New member
I just wish century still had Tok spam cans delivered for under a hundred bucks!