To past/current Police Officers..

S

SquattingDog

New member
This one is for past and current police officers...

Can you tell me some examples/stories about experiences you had out on the job, that a civilian shot a suspect but it wasnt consider self defense though the civilian felt his life was in danger. Also how exactly did the civilian go wrong in his "self defense" situation. What happenes whena civilian rightfully shoots somebody in a self defense situation, do you just go off the civilians word?

The only reason I'm asking is out of pure curiosity.


-Adam
 
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Adam, first of all "Squatting Dog" sounds like a bad Native American name :D

I'm responding only because I'm new and have mentioned a few times that I work in law enforcement. In 20 years of work I've never been involved first-hand in a case like you describe. I spent the first 3.5 years in a blue collar town of some 3500 people where we had just about everything except shootings. My last 16.5 years have been spent at a University police dept., and the only people allowed to have guns on campus is us. We've had isolated cases involving guns, but no shootings on our campus in my time there (there was one case that we're sure happend on campus, but we couldn't prove it and it was a case of two thugs engaged in a dispute, likely over drugs).

I can speak for myself and the others in my dept. by saying we'd not automatically take the shooter's word as gospel. The physical evidence must agree as much as possible. The hardest case would be a dead man who the shooter says made a threatening gesture (i.e. reached into his waistband, under his seat, etc.), but it's discovered that the dead man had no weapon. Witnesses either do not exist or are inconclusive as to what happened. Dead men can't talk so what am I to believe?
 
+1 for the last post, and in 7 years of law enforcement I've never run into a situation where a "good guy" actually got to shoot somebody. probably around a dozen or so where someone was scared off by a gun (in which case we usually congratulate the person on being prepared and mindset in not being a victim), but never actually responded to a good guy shooting.
 
Well, I never encountered that situation.

If I had, I would not be the one to make the decision on what or who to believe. It may work differently elsewhere, but the days when the sheriff declared it a "good shooting" and bought the shooter a drink are gone. If I have a dead body, and a shooter, and the incident took place outside the shooter's home, I am going to make an arrest for homicide, and leave it to the state's attorney whether to bring charges or not.

If the incident took place in the shooter's home, and it looked like a clear case of a homeowner killing an intruder, most police would take the shooter's statement but not make an arrest unless circumstances were suspicious or the suits decided to order it.

Jim
 
Thanks guys I'm really interested in these type of questions


SMiller: My father was a Navy pilot he used to fly F15's that was his handle name his buddies was 10Speed ..because he always rode around his 10Speed Schwin. :)
 
Here's a strory for you...

First of all, I'm not a cop and do not play one on TV.

Here's a tragic incident that happened just north of Atlanta late last year. In short, 30 year old woman is carjacked/kidnapped by BG with the apparent intent of raping her (he was connected to another recent rape). Legally armed citizen witnesses the kidnapping and follows in his own car.

BG crashes the victim's car into a cement truck (killing the victim) and flees on foot. The guy who was following gets out of his car at which time the BG raises his weapon. Citizen fires and kills the BG.

Not sure how clear the attached link is on this point, but the police/DA did not file charges against the citizen saying that he acted in self defense.

Monday morning quarterbacks might argue that he had he not chased, the victim may have survived. While that's possible, it was pretty clear that rape was the intent. Once the BG's done that, he has a pretty good disincentive not to leave the witness around.

BTW, this was prior to GA's "stand your ground" law taking effect.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=69104
 
To my mind that's the same as thinking that you should comply with a criminal, and hope he doesn't shoot you anyway.

Criminals should be resisted with every means available, and if they've got the drop on you you should be looking for your chance.

Things MIGHT go bad for you, but they just as well MIGHT go bad for the badguy too... and worst case at least you went down swinging.


Monday morning quarterbacks might argue that he had he not chased, the victim may have survived.
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A friend of mine was working on a city police dept. in NE Ohio.

He and his partner responded to a B&E in progress at a residence. When they arrived they saw a guy with a gun running down the street and started to chase him. They repeadedly ordered the guy to stop and drop the weapon, but he refused and continued to try and get away. They shot him and killed him. They then found out he was the homeowner and was chasing the guy that tried to break into his house.

The last time I talked to my friend was about 7 years after this shooting. He was still in therapy and his life was a mess.

This isn't exactly what you were looking for, but maybe it will do somebody some good.
 
"They repeadedly ordered the guy to stop and drop the weapon, but he refused and continued to try and get away. They shot him and killed him. They then found out he was the homeowner and was chasing the guy that tried to break into his house. "


I can understand how this shooting would have haunted the cops, but it sounds to me like the brunt of the blame would fall on the homeowner if as stated he was repeatedly told to stop and drop.
 
what's that smell?

SMiller: My father was a Navy pilot he used to fly F15's that was his handle name his buddies was 10Speed ..because he always rode around his 10Speed Schwin.
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I think I smell BS.
Navy flew F-14s, Air Force flies F-15s....that is pretty common knowledge. :rolleyes:
 
I can understand how this shooting would have haunted the cops, but it sounds to me like the brunt of the blame would fall on the homeowner if as stated he was repeatedly told to stop and drop.


I know my friend carried more than his share of guilt for this, even though they were cleared of any wrong doing.
 
Looking over my previous post, I said I would make an arrest. I might not, depending on the circumstances. But I would certainly take the shooter into custody, arresting him if I had to. There is NO WAY I would let a shooter walk away from the scene no matter what he says or what anyone else says or what it looks like happened.

One way or another, I will get him off the street and let the guys in the higher pay grades sort things out.

Another thing to consider in shooting is the "deaf cop" syndrome. In DC a few years ago, a plain clothes officer apprehended a robbery suspect and was holding him at gunpoint waiting for backup. A uniformed officer came on the scene and, per procedure, attempted to take control. The plain clothes cop repeatedly ignored orders to drop his gun, and then turned toward the uniform, who shot him fatally. In the hospital, the dying cop explained that he had heard the order to drop the gun, but since he was a cop, he didn't think it meant him. It never occurred to him that he might not look like a cop. The uniformed officer was absolved of any blame, but left the force and reportedly still has mental problems.

Jim
 
I'm confused about the shooting of the homeowner who was running down the street... am I correct to infer that he was, essentially, shot in the back while running away from the direction of the cops? :eek:


There are cases we read about in which a suspect is pointing a gun at or near a cop and he still is not fired upon, right? And this guy was even less of a threat than such a person, and they shot him from behind?


-azurefly
 
There was a case in north dakota where the cops pulled a guy over for speeding and when the cops walked up to his his car he flipped and started running. The guy had nothing to run from he just freaked out. The cops shot him in the back as he was running away. Last i knew both cops were facing manslaughter charges. If i can find alink to it ill post it.

SW
 
I'm confused about the shooting of the armed homeowner who was running down the street... am I correct to infer that he was, essentially, shot in the back while running away from the direction of the cops?
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fixed

If you are armed you are still capable of using deadly force. If you are armed and facing the intruder you might want to give the dispatcher a physical description of yourself before running down the street. If the officer tells you to put the weapon down that would be the right thing to do. Officers are not mind readers.
 
While current police training definitely discourages shooting to stop anyone, a police officer is authorized to use deadly force to stop a fleeing person who, to the best of the officer's knowledge and belief, has committed a felony. The assumption is that a person who is fleeing from the police is the felon. As in the person seemingly fleeing a burglary, the shooting may have been justified on that basis. In the case of the guy who jumped out of his car, the police were on much less firm ground. The only thing they knew, or suspected, he had done was speeding, which is not a felony. Now if they had had a call that a man driving that car was suspected of having committed a murder, things would very likely have been different.

(Note that this differs from the CCW rules. An armed citizen can shoot to defend himself or others, but generally cannot fire once the direct threat ceases, even if the attacker is a suspected felon. Of course, circumstances vary, so there have been cases where shooting to stop was ruled justified.)

Jim
 
Exactly,
The officers were responding to a burglary in progress and saw an armed man running down the street. They were never told the homeowner was armed and was outside trying to catch the burgalr. (Lesson #1). After repeatedly being told to stop, the homeowner ignored the order. ( I don't know if he thought the police were talking to the burglar or was so intent on catching the burgler he didn't hear them. Lesson #2). If you were chasing a man with a gun from the scene of a burglary in progress and he wouldn't stop after being repeatedly ordered to do so, what would you do? This might have been the question posed to the grand jury on wether the officers should be charged or not. Most people would probably think just as the officers did and would have done the same thing. (Lesson #3)

This incident happened in Youngstown, Ohio. I think it was around 1986-1988. I tried to find it on the internet but their local paper, The Youngstown Vindicator, only archived back to about 1999.
 
That shooting in acworth, happened right up the street where I live. I am proud my town doesn't take any crap like that. One news sation called the carjacker the victom who had been murdered because the murderer assumed it was a carjacking. I'll say this, the media doesn't like it when people defend themselves and criminals are killed.

If everyone resisted a criminal and refused to be a victim, it would make a criminals life much harder, and there would be far less crime. If everytime a thug tried to carjack someone, or rob a store and bank, that everyone would fight back and everyone who saw it would jump in against them, the idea of robbery would be suicide, so those stupid enough to try it, wouldn't last too long, and for the rest, it would just be unthinkable.
 
Forgive me about the F-14 and F-15 confusion, I goofed didnt know it would cause such a ruckus. Thanks for everyone else who is posting with their stories.
 
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