Elmerjfudd
Inactive
Can I use Hodgdon tite-group powder to reload ,223 ammo? How many grains of powder would be recommended for 55 grain bullets?
TiteGroup
- Thread starter Elmerjfudd
- Start date
On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being completely unsuitable and 10 being the perfect match - tite-group would be a 1 or a 2 for .223.
A quick google search shows there are some loads out there but they appear to be very light loads meant for a bolt action. The loads are fairly close to .22lr ballistics.
A quick google search shows there are some loads out there but they appear to be very light loads meant for a bolt action. The loads are fairly close to .22lr ballistics.
NoSecondBest
New member
Get a loading manual and read it. Getting "free" info on loads off the internet is not only unreliable, it can be very unsafe. You need to be able to cross check any suggested loads given to you to see if they are safe and acceptable. Please, get a manual before loading.
g.willikers
New member
Or at least go to the Hodgdon web site and use their online loading data.
Mr. Fudd, why did you decide to use Titegroup for .223 in the first place?
Wait, don't say it, you got a really good deal on a whole lot of it real cheap.
We've all been there, done that.
Save it for your pistols.
Ever since Clays got scarce, I've been using it for that with good results.
Mr. Fudd, why did you decide to use Titegroup for .223 in the first place?
Wait, don't say it, you got a really good deal on a whole lot of it real cheap.
We've all been there, done that.
Save it for your pistols.
Ever since Clays got scarce, I've been using it for that with good results.
Elmerjfudd
Inactive
PROMO Powder?
Yup! Good deal, really cheap. How about Alliant "Promo" for my .223 reloads? I'm kinda new at reloading.
Yup! Good deal, really cheap.
How about Alliant "Promo" for my .223 reloads? I'm kinda new at reloading.StripesDude
New member
Buy some rifle powder. Stop messing with shotshell or pistol powder for rifle cartridges.
If you want cheap, throw your reloading equipment away and start buying cheap Russian ammo.
If you want cheap, throw your reloading equipment away and start buying cheap Russian ammo.
Not arguing this statement but it made me curious. Why do you say that?
I am new, also, and got a bottle of TiteGroup because it was the only pistol powder available at my local store and I wanted to reload using my new RCBS press. (I only load for handguns) I used the Lyman manual and stayed at the MIN loads to start.
I followed the book data and was extra careful (new guy syndrome
) and I've loaded a number of different caliber rounds using TiteGroup powder. No problems and I never thought twice about using this powder.I know it is a fast-burning powder and I don't plan to get crazy with it. But I use TG and Universal quite a bit with good results. Am I just lucky?
Elmerjfudd,
As a bullet moves down a barrel, the space the powder is burning in grows. This is called expansion. In a .223 Remington, the bullet has to move forward almost an inch and a half to double the volume the powder started burning in when the bullet was seated and the primer fired. In a .45 Auto firing hardball, it only has to move about half an inch to double that volume. So, despite being big and relatively slow, the .45 is able to double volume sooner, and so it needs a faster powder to make gas fast enough to do that. The rifle, on the other hand, must have a slower powder so as not to reach the peak pressure too soon and in a space too small, which would raise the pressure unacceptably.
One of the consequences of the above is that while you can theoretically load the faster powder to the same pressure as the rifle powder, the amount you can use would be smaller so it can't make too much gas for the smaller space it is peaking in. But that also means it makes less gas overall, so that when the rifle bullet was heading down the bore, expanding the space, pressure drops off faster. The results are going to be too little pressure at the gas port to operate an AR, and lower final velocity.
For example, in .223 Remington, even if you could safely load Tightgroup to the same peak pressure as H335, the muzzle velocity with Tightgroup would be about 25% lower. But you can't safely load it that high. The reason you can't is that the case fill is low (under 50%) and that leads to erratic pressure and pressure spikes in some circumstances. So you can probably load to around 5 grains and drive light bullets down the tube at pressures low enough to avoid getting a peak that exceeds the rated pressure should you get a double-pressure spike, which Dr. Lloyd Brownell demonstrated in the mid-60's can happen in 30-40% loading densities in bottleneck rifle cases sometimes. There will be no gas operation of an AR at that pressure level, though. Strictly single-shot.
I think, if you want rifle powder that is cheap, you'll need to look at the surplus sellers. They often have pull-down military powder or military surplus lots. You just need to be cognizant of the fact the military often gets rid of the ammunition and powder because it has passed their age limits, so you want to keep checking it for signs of aging and not load rounds for future years that you want to keep around. Load it and shoot it that same year.
The other thing to beware of with surplus sellers is they sometimes actually charge more than you can buy new powder for. This place wants $199 for 8 lbs of WC844 surplus 5.56 NATO ball powder with shipping included, but Hodgdon H335 is canister grade (tighter burn rate spec than bulk) WC844 and you can get 8 lbs of new production at Powder Valley for $158.50. Even with the hazmat fee and shipping, that should still beat $199, and you get the tighter spec powder. This place is better on the surplus at $144 for 8 lbs, but the shipping and hazmat are on top of that, and not knowing the exact burn rate the advertised claim that H335 data is good with it has to be taken with a grain of salt. For $14.50 in price difference, personally, I'd stick with Hodgdon's version. The last time Jeff Bartlett had surplus WC844, it was like half the price of Hodgdon's product. That, to my thinking, is more like what I expect surplus to be priced at. But he doesn't currently have any.
As a bullet moves down a barrel, the space the powder is burning in grows. This is called expansion. In a .223 Remington, the bullet has to move forward almost an inch and a half to double the volume the powder started burning in when the bullet was seated and the primer fired. In a .45 Auto firing hardball, it only has to move about half an inch to double that volume. So, despite being big and relatively slow, the .45 is able to double volume sooner, and so it needs a faster powder to make gas fast enough to do that. The rifle, on the other hand, must have a slower powder so as not to reach the peak pressure too soon and in a space too small, which would raise the pressure unacceptably.
One of the consequences of the above is that while you can theoretically load the faster powder to the same pressure as the rifle powder, the amount you can use would be smaller so it can't make too much gas for the smaller space it is peaking in. But that also means it makes less gas overall, so that when the rifle bullet was heading down the bore, expanding the space, pressure drops off faster. The results are going to be too little pressure at the gas port to operate an AR, and lower final velocity.
For example, in .223 Remington, even if you could safely load Tightgroup to the same peak pressure as H335, the muzzle velocity with Tightgroup would be about 25% lower. But you can't safely load it that high. The reason you can't is that the case fill is low (under 50%) and that leads to erratic pressure and pressure spikes in some circumstances. So you can probably load to around 5 grains and drive light bullets down the tube at pressures low enough to avoid getting a peak that exceeds the rated pressure should you get a double-pressure spike, which Dr. Lloyd Brownell demonstrated in the mid-60's can happen in 30-40% loading densities in bottleneck rifle cases sometimes. There will be no gas operation of an AR at that pressure level, though. Strictly single-shot.
I think, if you want rifle powder that is cheap, you'll need to look at the surplus sellers. They often have pull-down military powder or military surplus lots. You just need to be cognizant of the fact the military often gets rid of the ammunition and powder because it has passed their age limits, so you want to keep checking it for signs of aging and not load rounds for future years that you want to keep around. Load it and shoot it that same year.
The other thing to beware of with surplus sellers is they sometimes actually charge more than you can buy new powder for. This place wants $199 for 8 lbs of WC844 surplus 5.56 NATO ball powder with shipping included, but Hodgdon H335 is canister grade (tighter burn rate spec than bulk) WC844 and you can get 8 lbs of new production at Powder Valley for $158.50. Even with the hazmat fee and shipping, that should still beat $199, and you get the tighter spec powder. This place is better on the surplus at $144 for 8 lbs, but the shipping and hazmat are on top of that, and not knowing the exact burn rate the advertised claim that H335 data is good with it has to be taken with a grain of salt. For $14.50 in price difference, personally, I'd stick with Hodgdon's version. The last time Jeff Bartlett had surplus WC844, it was like half the price of Hodgdon's product. That, to my thinking, is more like what I expect surplus to be priced at. But he doesn't currently have any.
Excellent poat as always, unclenick, but this is a serious business and maybe some tough love is in order.
There is perhaps NO BETTER WAY to blow up a rifle and bleed all over a shooting range than to pick Titegroup and willy-nilly think you can make rifle ammo with it.
There is a lot at stake if you want to handload. Take it seriously and KNOW what you are doing. Plenty of folks here that love to help but you'll have to approach this with the respect it deserves.
There is perhaps NO BETTER WAY to blow up a rifle and bleed all over a shooting range than to pick Titegroup and willy-nilly think you can make rifle ammo with it.
There is a lot at stake if you want to handload. Take it seriously and KNOW what you are doing. Plenty of folks here that love to help but you'll have to approach this with the respect it deserves.
Alliant Promo is just as bad of a choice. A reloading manual is a must especially when dealing with high pressure rifle loads. Pick a bullet and then see what powders are suitable. If you want to use shotgun powders use them in shotguns, not rifles.
Just guessing at appropriate powders is not a good idea. .223 is like the most popular rifle round out there. I'm sure there is tons of loading data available.
Just guessing at appropriate powders is not a good idea. .223 is like the most popular rifle round out there. I'm sure there is tons of loading data available.
Elmerjfudd
Inactive
You folks are the Best!!!
Great advice, thanks to everyone!!!
Great advice, thanks to everyone!!!
Nosler guy
New member
I have experimented with TG quite a bit since I have enough to load my and all of my friends pistols for life. I did a test going up in .2 gr increments from a subsonic load in a gas operated 556 to see if it could make enough hot gas to extract and feed before chamber pressure got too high. I ran into high pressures with almost zero change in bolt movement, meaning it never even got close to extracting cases. I did notice , as I expected, that when it started getting hot it got hot really quick and if I let a round sit in the chamber while it was warm there were even more pressure signs because the powder is very sensitive to temperature changes. I think if someone really wanted to make a cheap plinking load it's possible but is it really worth the risk..... it's easy to tell if you messed up a charge in a pistol case if you use a flashlight but you could easily double charge a 223 case and never know until it lends you the name stumpy or one eye Jack. LG
For sure, you can get in to nearly as much trouble with Bullseye, AA#2, anything that is fast burning and dense.
Titegroup is simply the -most- in all of these categories, high nitro content, runs hot as hell, spikes as fast as anything, as dense as they come AND noted for being low in cost! It is even named as such. And Titegroup, even when used in it's proper place also seems to quite often have the absolute shortest usable range from start to MAX in published data. Without even cracking a one pounder, the published load data should show a seasoned handloader that this powder requires as much care as anything on the market.
Your argument is valid -- the triage wouldn't be able to tell which powder severed your fingers and EVERY propellent we use at the bench demands respect, but Titegroup seems to be the most capable and most available for abuse. Titegroup is the powder they used on a few episodes of the gun abuse segment they ran on the Guns & Ammo TV show that used to get so many folks all riled up.
Titegroup is simply the -most- in all of these categories, high nitro content, runs hot as hell, spikes as fast as anything, as dense as they come AND noted for being low in cost! It is even named as such. And Titegroup, even when used in it's proper place also seems to quite often have the absolute shortest usable range from start to MAX in published data. Without even cracking a one pounder, the published load data should show a seasoned handloader that this powder requires as much care as anything on the market.
Your argument is valid -- the triage wouldn't be able to tell which powder severed your fingers and EVERY propellent we use at the bench demands respect, but Titegroup seems to be the most capable and most available for abuse. Titegroup is the powder they used on a few episodes of the gun abuse segment they ran on the Guns & Ammo TV show that used to get so many folks all riled up.
There's one 55 grain jacketed load using Tite-Group on Hodgdon's site. Max load only and it says it produces only 4,000 CUP at 1,064 fps. out of a 24" barrel. A start load would be 2.7.
Something about it just ain't right, but it's there and Hodgdon would not publish data that'd get them sued.
"...How about Alliant "Promo"..." No proper data.
As mentioned, go buy a manual. Think Lyman. It's far more versatile than any bullet or powder makers book.
Something about it just ain't right, but it's there and Hodgdon would not publish data that'd get them sued.
"...How about Alliant "Promo"..." No proper data.
As mentioned, go buy a manual. Think Lyman. It's far more versatile than any bullet or powder makers book.
Even today, components can be finicky to come by. Primers are finally back, mostly, but powder selection is still hit and miss. Sure, you can go to a gun show and probably find about anything. If you want a well known, loved, widely used powder, you will probably pay a good bit for it. H335 would be an example. It is still very hard to find in my area, short of paying scalper prices at a gun show. The obvious solution?
When I started, I would take my manual with me when shopping for components. I still do sometimes, but I know what is what a little better these days. Please, get a manual. You can supplement with online data later, when you aren't a beginner. But starting out, you should not deviate from loads listed in a reputable reloading manual.
When I started, I would take my manual with me when shopping for components. I still do sometimes, but I know what is what a little better these days. Please, get a manual. You can supplement with online data later, when you aren't a beginner. But starting out, you should not deviate from loads listed in a reputable reloading manual.
Great post but I want to mention that while getting loads from a reputable source is a large part of safely getting in to handloading... the genius of the load manual is to learn what you are doing and hopefully, what goes on inside a cartridge when the hammer falls. Use the manual to help understand what pistol powders do and how they give the results we want and how and why using a pistol powder in a bottle neck rifle round when you don't really understand the interior ballistics... is kind of like building a destructive device.
Load manuals publish long listings on paper of different combinations, all of which is "current" at the time of publication and some of it ages better than others. But the real value in a good load manual is the instructive and informative part that makes up the first 20% of pages in the book.
Load manuals publish long listings on paper of different combinations, all of which is "current" at the time of publication and some of it ages better than others. But the real value in a good load manual is the instructive and informative part that makes up the first 20% of pages in the book.