Tite Group in a .40
- Thread starter Poconolg
- Start date
Sunday Shooter
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lee n. field
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Any particular 165 grain bullet? Because load data is going to vary (some) by bullet. Esp. jacketed vs. cast lead.
ShootistPRS
New member
Swaged lead, cast lead, cup and core, solid copper or solid brass... they can each have different load data.
I know every reloading manual tries to convince you that it is the best, but:
Unless you have the same lot of bullets, the same lot of powder, the same lot of cases, the same lot of primers, with bullets to the same COL and fired in the same gun, you'll not get the same results as the specific loading manual.
Your mix may produce a higher or lower pressure than noted in any specific manual. In fact, your mix may produce higher or lower pressure than ALL the manuals.
Thus, you START at the START load and work up.
From the X-treme website:
"Load Info
Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp
Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp"
There is no guessing, there is no assuming, there are no safe short-cuts.
So, you are using a plated bullet. Best to use lead bullet data.
Next, .40S&W is temperamental and does not do well with light loads of fast powders. TiteGroup does not always do well with very light loads (you'll note frequently that the start load is less than a 10% drop from the max load, indicating that there were problems with traditional start loads. Based on that and my experience, be careful. I have found that TiteGroup, old Clays, and N310 all produced erratic velocity at low charge weights, even with weighed charges. This has not been dangerous, just that the groups open up at 25 yards and beyond.
For 170gn bullets (you can always use data for the next heavier bullet of the same construction), I have used 4.5gn start and 5.3gn max with 165gn lead bullets.
For jacketed, where you should only go up to mid-range jacketed loads with a plated bullet usually, I have 4.6 and 5.0gn for START loads and 5.1 and 5.4gn for MAX loads. I would start at 4.5gn and work up watching for any pressure signs or recoil stronger than 165gn factory rounds. So, where mid-range would be 4.9-5.2gn, I would load 4.5, 4.7, 4.9gn and see what I get. If all is well, you can go up to 5.1 and 5.3gn. You only need to fire a few rounds to check for function and pressure signs.
Unless you have the same lot of bullets, the same lot of powder, the same lot of cases, the same lot of primers, with bullets to the same COL and fired in the same gun, you'll not get the same results as the specific loading manual.
Your mix may produce a higher or lower pressure than noted in any specific manual. In fact, your mix may produce higher or lower pressure than ALL the manuals.
Thus, you START at the START load and work up.
From the X-treme website:
"Load Info
Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp
Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp"
There is no guessing, there is no assuming, there are no safe short-cuts.
So, you are using a plated bullet. Best to use lead bullet data.
Next, .40S&W is temperamental and does not do well with light loads of fast powders. TiteGroup does not always do well with very light loads (you'll note frequently that the start load is less than a 10% drop from the max load, indicating that there were problems with traditional start loads. Based on that and my experience, be careful. I have found that TiteGroup, old Clays, and N310 all produced erratic velocity at low charge weights, even with weighed charges. This has not been dangerous, just that the groups open up at 25 yards and beyond.
For 170gn bullets (you can always use data for the next heavier bullet of the same construction), I have used 4.5gn start and 5.3gn max with 165gn lead bullets.
For jacketed, where you should only go up to mid-range jacketed loads with a plated bullet usually, I have 4.6 and 5.0gn for START loads and 5.1 and 5.4gn for MAX loads. I would start at 4.5gn and work up watching for any pressure signs or recoil stronger than 165gn factory rounds. So, where mid-range would be 4.9-5.2gn, I would load 4.5, 4.7, 4.9gn and see what I get. If all is well, you can go up to 5.1 and 5.3gn. You only need to fire a few rounds to check for function and pressure signs.
As if I was in this situation, I followed Sunday Shooter's advice and looked up Hodgdon's data.
Heh, Hodgdon starts even lower at 4.5 grains
.I don't load 40 S&W; but I do load 10mm Auto with X-treme's 180gn bullets for my range shooters. Kind of apples n oranges, I know.
TiteGroup is pretty spunky stuff. In this case, I'd be inclined to stick with Hodgdon's data by starting at 4.5-ish and working up as needed. TG is highly energetic and unforgiving. This would be a good time to err on the side of caution.
BTW, you never told us your load purpose. Considering you've got a plated bullet, I'm assuming you want to make some good consistent range ammo (??).
Good post .Nick.
Not sure about your experience, but many 40's seem to run better with slower powders. I wonder if Longshot or cfepistol would be a better choice.
My 40 load is a bit different: CCW 500 primer, mix cases, cfepistol @6.3gr, Xtreme 180 RNFP @1.125". Seems like a good load. Need to chrono it. Should be 1075 fps out of my CZ75.
Not sure about your experience, but many 40's seem to run better with slower powders. I wonder if Longshot or cfepistol would be a better choice.
My 40 load is a bit different: CCW 500 primer, mix cases, cfepistol @6.3gr, Xtreme 180 RNFP @1.125". Seems like a good load. Need to chrono it. Should be 1075 fps out of my CZ75.
SauerGrapes
New member
I agree, 4.5grs is a good place to start.
I've used slower powders like Universal and 800x. I've also made some nice plinking loads with Clays and American Select.
TiteGroup is very popular at my club. Some guys use it for most everything handgun.
I've used slower powders like Universal and 800x. I've also made some nice plinking loads with Clays and American Select.
TiteGroup is very popular at my club. Some guys use it for most everything handgun.
I think it's popular in general. I discovered it during the last shortage because it was available. I was running very low on W231 and thought I'd give it a try.
It's not W231.
It is really good for making plated range shooters though. But unlike W231, it runs really hot and so it tends to be problematic with lead slugs. Not only can W231 make great plated range shooters, but since it runs much cooler, it is also suitable for lead.
I digress. Back to TG. It's economical and plentiful. So it's popular. My chrono results show that it runs consistent and almost always delivers low Standard Deviations. It's good stuff and does what it does well.