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PocketCamera

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well since new models have been released by smith and ruger, i guess its a fair question.

has the change in production equipment, change in management philosophy, resulted in revolver barrels that cant handle lead bullets, or give accuracy with lead?
 
I'd have to say - the issue goes back a good 20 years.
Back then I noticed that new S&W revolvers I'd bought, had to have a fair number of jacketed bullets run through them to smooth out the barrels so that they wouldn't have issues with lead bullets.

I quit buying new S&W revolvers shortly after that & they ony one I've bught since is a M69 - which will probably not see any lead bullets for the foreseeable future.

Eventully things smooth out & the lead bullets quit smearing the barrel & quit keyholding. It takes a couple hundred rounds of jacketed - but - they so smooth out.
 
Nope. I have many older S&W’s and Ruger and a few new ones. The new ones shoot just as good if not better. Is shoot 95% with lead I cast myself.
 
Most modern revolvers can be problematic for cast. The issue is that "cast bullet friendly" is not perceived to be important to the maker.

The tolerances on the throats of a "cast bullet friendly" revolver needs to be much tighter than is needed for jacketed bullets.

Most guns makers in general have had off and on quality issues. However, most gun maker can turn out some pretty good stuff much of the time.

I really see no real trend (better or worse) for guns made since I started shooting.
 
Most modern revolvers can be problematic for cast. The issue is that "cast bullet friendly" is not perceived to be important to the maker.

The tolerances on the throats of a "cast bullet friendly" revolver needs to be much tighter than is needed for jacketed bullets.
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I disagree. The problem, if there is one, isn't the guns. It is the expectations of "cast bullet shooters" who aren't casters, just shooters of commercially cast bullets.

the old timers, especially the cast bullet rifle shooters, understood, that you fit the bullet to the gun, not the other way around.

The nominal diameters for each caliber were the starting point, not the end. This is why you see so many different diameters in molds and lubricator sizer dies in each caliber.

It didn't matter what the book said your gun was supposed to be, what mattered was what the gun was, and choosing the right size bullet to properly fit what you had.

So, if you buy a new revolver and don't get exactly what you want from it, using commercially cast bullets of a "standard" size and their choice of alloy & hardness, is the gun at fault? Or did you just buy the wrong bullet for what you've got???

I know how I'd vote...:rolleyes:
 
Excellent comment 44 AMP. Maybe one of these days I'll pay more attention to my barrels requirements. I can remember selling off a few revolvers that leaded badly. The problems probably could have been solved with a little barrel prep and properly sized bullets and throats instead of all that work with an old Lewis Lead Remover.

Just like street racing back in the 60's. Everyone bought the factory stuff, GTO,s and 426 wedges and were surprised when they got beat by someone who took the time to put something together that would out perform the factory stuff and paid attention to the details.
 
Shooting cast bullets and getting accuracy without leading stands on 3 things, Size (fit of the bullet in the bore), Construction (the alloy used) and Speed (how fast you are driving them). There are a few other little things that matter as well, but those are the 3 main pillars you need to get in balance.

A triangle is the strongest structural shape, in that, while it will break, it will not bend or deform short of breaking.

However a tripod is the least stable thing to sit on, all the legs need to be the right length or you fall on your butt. ;)
 
My old K38 from the '60s was always a lead fest with any .358 dia cast bullet, either home cast or commercial. In later years I shot only Rem 148gr hbwc and never used the Lewis Lead Remover again. Bullet dia and hardness made all the difference. New reloaders need to understand the relationship between throat dia and bullet dia. Bullet hardness is critical, as most are too hard. Generally, softer and fatter is better here
 
I buy 'commercial' lead bullets (mostly from Rimrock now). Hardness in the 12-15 BHN. I stay away from 20+ BHN bullets. All I shoot is lead, from centerfire .32 to .45 . Velocities have ranged from 700 - 1300fps. The few problems I have run into was 'under sized' .45 Colt cylinder throats and two that had constrictions in the barrel (fire lapping took care of that). These were 'GUN' problems that were easily solved. Yes, if you run into 'over -sized' throats then you must fit the bullet to the throat. No problems with accuracy either once dimensions are corrected. Anyway, every gun is different. Ie. YMMV.
 
If a fellow can reload cast bullets with good results, he is truly a reloader. Anything else is just assemblying ammunition. Some times it takes a lifetime.
 
44 AMP said:
I disagree. The problem, if there is one, isn't the guns. It is the expectations of "cast bullet shooters" who aren't casters, just shooters of commercially cast bullets.
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^^^I tend to agree for the most part. There was a reason for the switch to jacketed from lead for civilian usage and it mainly came about because of leading and the mass production of ammo. Jacketed bullets are far less susceptible to bore/throat variances and copper fouling is much less than with lead. While one can buy commercially mass loaded lead ammo, odds that it will work well in your particular firearm is sketchy and mostly a toss of a coin. Those who load lead successfully understand the relationship between a proper fitting lead bullet and leading and can adapt the bullet size. Most commercial bulk ammo makers aren't really interested in small groups of buyers but the largest.....those who want to buy whats for sale and have it shoot decently outta their gun. The priorities for gun makers is the same. The majority of folks out there shoot jacketed bullets, so the guns are directed at that market. Priorities for mass production are barres that shoot jacketed ammo best. Matching throats to bore is not a priority, because for the majority of shooters, it's a moot point. Manufacturers know, those few who insist on loading lead, will accommodate.
 
well since new models have been released by smith and ruger, i guess its a fair question.
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What "new" models are you talking about? If you mean those that were manufactured post-Clinton, I would hardly call that "new."
 
I'm old enough to remember the time when 90% (or more) factory loaded revolver ammo was loaded with lead bullets, and ammo for semi autos was about the same or higher percentage FULL METAL JACKET.

JHP or even JSP bullets came from companies like Hornady and Speer, for handloading. You didn't get loaded ammo from Rem, Win, Peters, UMC or even Federal in anything other than lead for revolver rounds and FMJ for semi auto pistol rounds. It wasn't until Super Vel and some others "opened the door" and later on the big ammo makers finally saw the light and began offering different bullets along with the old standards.

Today we're decades down the road from those days, and too many people seem to think things have always been the way they are now, and that's simply not the case.
 
I disagree. The problem, if there is one, isn't the guns. It is the expectations of "cast bullet shooters" who aren't casters, just shooters of commercially cast bullets.

the old timers, especially the cast bullet rifle shooters, understood, that you fit the bullet to the gun, not the other way around.

The nominal diameters for each caliber were the starting point, not the end. This is why you see so many different diameters in molds and lubricator sizer dies in each caliber.

It didn't matter what the book said your gun was supposed to be, what mattered was what the gun was, and choosing the right size bullet to properly fit what you had.

So, if you buy a new revolver and don't get exactly what you want from it, using commercially cast bullets of a "standard" size and their choice of alloy & hardness, is the gun at fault? Or did you just buy the wrong bullet for what you've got???

I know how I'd vote...
Click to expand...


Agree completely.
 
Nope. I have many older S&W’s and Ruger and a few new ones. The new ones shoot just as good if not better. Is shoot 95% with lead I cast myself.
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Well said, Red, my experience as well. I've had particularly good results with a Smith M69 and a M629-6, both in .44 Magnum, but are equally good with .44 Spl length brass and suitable loads...Skelton's original .44 Special loading in particular. (7.5 gr Unique backing a good quality 240 gr LSWC sized to throat dia.) Same good results for a M60 & a pair of M637's...no problems with lead alloy bullets. I size these to 0.358" when casting using WW alloy with a pinch of tin as necessary to enhance mold fill out.

If you don't want to slug your cylinder throats, I've found that sizing to 0.430" has worked with better than a half dozen .44's of Ruger or S&W make. Also, if you're limited to hard cast commercial offerings with that abdominable hard lube, try swirl lubing them with Lee's Liquid Alox. It's eliminated most leading with moderate velocity commercial bullets for me.

HTH's Rod
 
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ime of the decade
well since new models have been released by smith and ruger, i guess its a fair question.

has the change in production equipment, change in management philosophy, resulted in revolver barrels that cant handle lead bullets, or give accuracy with lead?
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What was the experience, or advice, that led you to ask this question?

tipoc
 
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