tight group vs bullseye ?
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
Pro:
Titegroup is a versatile powder, usable in a number of calibers.
Burns fairly clean--usually just a little soot left behind.
Meters well, not temperature sensitive, cheap and available.
Con:
It burns HOT, and with lead/lubed bullet loads it will smoke like
a choo-choo train. Bad enough to be a problem indoors, and under
certain conditions outdoors.
I haven't used any Bullseye in a while----I'll leave it to others to
comment on it.
Titegroup is a versatile powder, usable in a number of calibers.
Burns fairly clean--usually just a little soot left behind.
Meters well, not temperature sensitive, cheap and available.
Con:
It burns HOT, and with lead/lubed bullet loads it will smoke like
a choo-choo train. Bad enough to be a problem indoors, and under
certain conditions outdoors.
I haven't used any Bullseye in a while----I'll leave it to others to
comment on it.
I have found that the soot cleans up when it's loaded up fairly good. And that brings me to my primary point: TiteGroup is considerably slower than Bullseye. So much so, that they are interchangeable only in certain applications. Namely, in applications where you've got the rounds pumped up a little beyond "pure target" levels. What I call "range ammo."
Absolutely. It's fine and dense, so it drops consistent charges. It's a pleasure to work with.
Yes. And yes.
I agree - and then some . . . it runs so hot that it leads up the barrels of every lead loading I've shot with it (lots of different bullets, in 38 & 44 Special). So I don't use it for lead any more. To me, TG is a plated bullet only propellant (jackets, occasionally).
I'll also add: Being such a dense propellant, in some situations, it's actually possible to drop a quadruple charge in 38 Special, and still have room for the bullet (verified). So care is to be taken when charging the cases. Amazingly, even with such small volumetric charges, the chronograph shows excellent shot over shot velocities (Standard Deviation). It's really good stuff that way.
For the record, in August last year, I purchased 4#'s of TG - untested. I had no previous experience with it. My plan was to make pure target shooters (lead) with it for 38 & 44 Spl. I was disappointed. That left me scrambling to find a use for it - and I did. I works really well for plated general range ammo (38 & 44 Spl; 45 ACP). The current plan is to exhaust my supply, using it for this purpose. But once I run out, I don't know . . . I may find myself looking for more because it really suits this purpose well. W231/HP-38 fits this purpose too; but, TG, being slightly slower, fits this purpose more centered. And TG seems much easier to find than W231.
Circling back to Bullseye: It's great for lead target shooters. But it does leave behind a fine residue - no matter how its loaded. I've learned to live with it - especially in the lead world. Lead shoots smokey and smeary anyway, so who cares if it's being propelled by a "residuey" powder? Besides, I clean my guns after I shoot them; so it matters not to me.
Hammerhead
New member
I'll add that Titegroup's tiny charges are hard to inspect. It's a very good powder though, very good consistency & accuracy even with small charges in magnum brass. Hated the heat it generated, my autos really got hot.
I like Bullseye better. Meters great, more bulk, shoots clean with coated/plated/jacketed, not too messy with cast. Always good accuracy in .45 auto and I even use it for light loads in .357 (as recommended by Lyman).
I like Bullseye better. Meters great, more bulk, shoots clean with coated/plated/jacketed, not too messy with cast. Always good accuracy in .45 auto and I even use it for light loads in .357 (as recommended by Lyman).
jetinteriorguy
New member
I use both and all the info given so far is spot on. Personally I love the stuff. I use it in my .357 both revolver and lever action with excellent results, and in my .38 for a nice medium load. It does burn hot but I only use it with either copper coated or Hitech coated bullets with great results. It's a very versatile and economical powder.
The initial advantage to TiteGroup was cost. I remember when it first came out it was $79 for an 8lb jug. I've put over 300,000 rounds down range with TiteGroup, .45acp and 9mm. It's not a clean powder by any means, but it cleans up really easily. It's a sugar powder (not corn flake) and meters really well. You don't need much either, for minor power floor, only 3.2 grains on top of a 125gr 9mm. Probably the cleanest powder I have used over the last 48 years is the new Alliant BE-86. I put a 125 JHP Montana Gold over 7.8 grains of it in a .357SIG and it goes about 1,440 fps, but very clean.
Pathfinder45
New member
I like Titegroup for light target loads in 45 Colt, i.e., 255 grain cast bullets at 840 fps. I never noticed the high heat others have mentioned, but then, a single-action revolver has slower reload times than an autoloader, so some of that heat has time to dissipate.
I use a lot of TiteGroup - and I like it a lot...and yes I think its cleaner than bullseye...but I only shoot FMJ bullets in my handguns - primarily indoors / and there is no significant smoke in any of the calibers I load ( 9mm, .40S&W, .45 acp, .38 spl, .357 mag and .44 mag...)...
TiteGroup is my primary powder in all of the handgun calibers I load.
TiteGroup is my primary powder in all of the handgun calibers I load.
Titegroup has been my "goto" powder for light target loads in 9mm in the past. I have found it is well suited for 125 gr target JHP and thick plated bullets with 4gr and COAL dependent of bullet design.
Bullseye smokes a little more and runs a bit dirtier in the 9 but the 45GAP likes it a bit better than the Titegroup. I have found Bullseye is a bit more forgiving as it's accuracy window seems to be a bit wider than that of TiteGroup in the heavier caliber.
I have been playing with CFE Pistol lately. I have found it to be a very clean, slower burning powder that meters well and gives very good velocities.
Bullseye smokes a little more and runs a bit dirtier in the 9 but the 45GAP likes it a bit better than the Titegroup. I have found Bullseye is a bit more forgiving as it's accuracy window seems to be a bit wider than that of TiteGroup in the heavier caliber.
I have been playing with CFE Pistol lately. I have found it to be a very clean, slower burning powder that meters well and gives very good velocities.
I have been shooting Bullseye powder in my M1911 in 2700 Bullseye competition. I do not consider my loads smoky. I have asked others about the powders they use, Titegroup is fairly common, and when I ask why shooters are using it, the replies vary all over the place. Some say it is cleaner, others claim it meters better, no one really claims that it is more accurate because Bullseye shooting is so difficult that the inherent accuracy of the pistol and load is well within the shooter's hold. All you have to do to shoot a perfect score at 50 yards is put all your bullets in a two inch circle. But that accomplishment occurs about as often as a no hitter base ball game. There are people who Ranson rest their pistols and ammo, but I have never met one.
For Bullseye shooters, they tend to shoot what powder works well in their pistol and what is available. After matches the competitors stand around and talk, and when the subject turns to gunpowder, after the typical question of "what is the best powder?", comes the question, "who has any to sell?". I was able to buy four pounds of Titegroup this month, but I have not seen Bullseye on the shelf for a good while. I think this situation is going to continue. Theoretically one powder may be considered better for a number of reasons, but neither are to be found anywhere for any price.
For Bullseye shooters, they tend to shoot what powder works well in their pistol and what is available. After matches the competitors stand around and talk, and when the subject turns to gunpowder, after the typical question of "what is the best powder?", comes the question, "who has any to sell?". I was able to buy four pounds of Titegroup this month, but I have not seen Bullseye on the shelf for a good while. I think this situation is going to continue. Theoretically one powder may be considered better for a number of reasons, but neither are to be found anywhere for any price.
Not much more to add about Titegroup, than has been said, but I agree it runs hot. A little goes a long way, and it's very versatile in my bench. I've started to lessen my use of it in some calibers as I've started to use BE-86. I'm getting much better accuracy in 9mm and 357. It's also clean burning.
Agree with much of what's been said -- and we all find our way in this game. Some things that are VERY important to others are of little consequence to me... some things that don't bother others drive me right up the wall and I cannot accept them. Examples here include these items:
Titegroup does use smaller charge weights than most other powders for the same application. The numbers and math doesn't lie -- it means you'll spend less money on the powder in your ammo. Some time back, this seemed relatively important to me. These days, it doesn't matter at all. In handgun ammo, the cost of powder is almost irrelevant. That's tough to agree on where you are at the cash register with an 8-lb'er of powder
but the FACT is, I make like a gujillion rounds of handgun ammo with 8lbs of powder. So I find a hundred different reasons to select a powder beyond charge weight.
Titegroup does use a dense, tiny-looking little charge, leaving huge space leaving plenty of real estate for colossal disaster. Absolutely true and this should be a valid concern in progressive setups if the handloader cannot visually get a good look inside a charged case, and it's also a concern for beginning and (dare I poke the bear) reckless, hurried, lees-than-serious handloaders. For myself, it is not an issue. A quadruple charge of Titegroup in a .38 Special case is going to absolutely destroy a handgun (no questions here) but a triple charge of Bullseye will do that also. Inspection and a quality process with checks and balances is my answer for this situation, and if this were a real concern for me, all my handgun loads would be with Trail Boss.
Titegroup generates ridiculous HEAT due to the high nitroglycerine content of the powder and for me, this is genuine problem that I can't accept. It really is quite simple for me... in revolvers, especially my K-frames, I was taught to wrap two or three fingers on my left hand around the cylinder through the frame window and use my left thumb to eject the empties, holding that cylinder put when recharging the revolver either with a speed loader or with individual rounds. This is simply how I shoot a double action revolver... and with Titegroup, my damn fingers get scorched and I absolutely hate it and I will not accept it, so Titegroup is out of the question in .38 Special for me and my revolvers.
Titegroup does use smaller charge weights than most other powders for the same application. The numbers and math doesn't lie -- it means you'll spend less money on the powder in your ammo. Some time back, this seemed relatively important to me. These days, it doesn't matter at all. In handgun ammo, the cost of powder is almost irrelevant. That's tough to agree on where you are at the cash register with an 8-lb'er of powder
but the FACT is, I make like a gujillion rounds of handgun ammo with 8lbs of powder. So I find a hundred different reasons to select a powder beyond charge weight.Titegroup does use a dense, tiny-looking little charge, leaving huge space leaving plenty of real estate for colossal disaster. Absolutely true and this should be a valid concern in progressive setups if the handloader cannot visually get a good look inside a charged case, and it's also a concern for beginning and (dare I poke the bear) reckless, hurried, lees-than-serious handloaders. For myself, it is not an issue. A quadruple charge of Titegroup in a .38 Special case is going to absolutely destroy a handgun (no questions here) but a triple charge of Bullseye will do that also. Inspection and a quality process with checks and balances is my answer for this situation, and if this were a real concern for me, all my handgun loads would be with Trail Boss.
Titegroup generates ridiculous HEAT due to the high nitroglycerine content of the powder and for me, this is genuine problem that I can't accept. It really is quite simple for me... in revolvers, especially my K-frames, I was taught to wrap two or three fingers on my left hand around the cylinder through the frame window and use my left thumb to eject the empties, holding that cylinder put when recharging the revolver either with a speed loader or with individual rounds. This is simply how I shoot a double action revolver... and with Titegroup, my damn fingers get scorched and I absolutely hate it and I will not accept it, so Titegroup is out of the question in .38 Special for me and my revolvers.
Bullseye: extremely versatile powder that has been used in everything from .25 Auto to .44 Mag. It isn't the best and sure won't give max velocity in any magnum.
It is very stable and consistent, and runs very linear from very low charge weight up to max load.
In .45 Auto and .38 Spl, it is known for great accuracy. This extends to most bullet weights and most safe charge weights. Thus, if you want to find tune velocity for 25 or 50 yards, you have a powder that will not lose accuracy due to varying charge weight.
TightGroup burns VERY hot. It often has a very narrow range of charge weights from start to max and often seems to produce pressure spikes (which I think is one reason the max loads can be so low). For my guns, it produces an accurate load for some bullets over a very narrow range of charge weights.
I never noticed smoke while shooting, even back in '70s and '80 while competing in Bullseye, PPC, and IPSC. I had one .45 that I shot is all competitions, using 5.0gn Unique for Bullseye and PPC and 6.0gn for IPSC with H&G #68 and NEVER cleaned the gun through the whole season, so I don't understand the worry about clean.
Thus, don't discard a powder/bullet because someone says it's dirty or smoky--try it yourself and see.
It is very stable and consistent, and runs very linear from very low charge weight up to max load.
In .45 Auto and .38 Spl, it is known for great accuracy. This extends to most bullet weights and most safe charge weights. Thus, if you want to find tune velocity for 25 or 50 yards, you have a powder that will not lose accuracy due to varying charge weight.
TightGroup burns VERY hot. It often has a very narrow range of charge weights from start to max and often seems to produce pressure spikes (which I think is one reason the max loads can be so low). For my guns, it produces an accurate load for some bullets over a very narrow range of charge weights.
I never noticed smoke while shooting, even back in '70s and '80 while competing in Bullseye, PPC, and IPSC. I had one .45 that I shot is all competitions, using 5.0gn Unique for Bullseye and PPC and 6.0gn for IPSC with H&G #68 and NEVER cleaned the gun through the whole season, so I don't understand the worry about clean.
Thus, don't discard a powder/bullet because someone says it's dirty or smoky--try it yourself and see.
All this has been said before, but............
I find in my .38 Special loads that Bullseye smokes more than Titegroup. I shoot all winter indoors and I can definitely tell the difference.
I tried Titegroup for the first time this year. I loaded up 1000 or so, 148 grain wadcutters using minimal powder charges. In every gun I shot these in, I had to dig out the Lewis Lead Remover.
In 9mm the Titegroup seems to be a great powder.
I find in my .38 Special loads that Bullseye smokes more than Titegroup. I shoot all winter indoors and I can definitely tell the difference.
I tried Titegroup for the first time this year. I loaded up 1000 or so, 148 grain wadcutters using minimal powder charges. In every gun I shot these in, I had to dig out the Lewis Lead Remover.
In 9mm the Titegroup seems to be a great powder.
If your plan was to load lead with it, I definitely believe you've made the correct choice.
If I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't have bought my 4 #'s. This isn't an indictment of TiteGroup. TG is excellent for certain applications; and through my personal experience and testing, I now know what those applications are. It's just that those applications are generally not how I shoot; or not often, at least.