Tight bolt, but all within spec??? Help needed!!!

S

Safaripolice

New member
Hey friends. I’m a newer reloader and started with all Hornady equipment and accessories. From the classic press to the dies, tumbler, case trimmer, and everything in between, I started with all Hornady. Heck even my backup micrometer is now a Hornady lol. I like the brand and haven’t had issues with their ammo or other accessories so I went with them vs lee, Lyman or rcbs. Also the few issues I had when getting started, their customer support was great even though I broke a few pieces myself like pins and spindles they were great and sent me everything right away and free of charge.

Here is my issue;

Reloading for one of my favorite cartridges and my go to deer round the 25-06 and today at the range testing my first batch of loads I’m having issues with the bolt closing tightly. Not where gorilla strength is needed but also way to difficult to effectively have a smooth and quick follow up shot. Case Ejection takes place no problem and the bolt takes about the same strength to open or possibly less. To be honest I think it’s for sure easier to open then close after firing.

Want to add that this is a non issue with factory ammo from Remington, to federal and to Prvi which I shoot all the time for the cases and low cost and relative decent accuracy.

Rifle is a savage 110 and Here is the brass info. It was once shot Prvi Partizan 25-06 brass shot out my rifle so it’s only seen my chamber before and after.

Recipe was Hornady 117 grain SST bullets with 50 grains of IMR4350 and Remington LR Primers.

It appears that tonight after micrometers and calibers and measuring for hours and comparing different ammo and driving myself crazy I finally decided to post my question here since this sight has been so helpful in the past and I’ve made some friends here that have led to phone calls and hours of conversations. Amazing what the internet does and how it brings us together.

I am using Hornadys full length die set and using lube and all my measurements are totally within tolerance of the 25-06 cartridge. I was thinking maybe case was to long and pulled some apart even though they were all checked before making the ammo and they were fine. Most were 2.090-2.094ish. All within spec. Then I went and started trimming some to 2.084 for the minimum trim length, and made dummy rounds with fully seated bullets and what ya know same thing tight closing of the bolt. I then took a new federal cartridge I believe also 117 grain white tail classic ammo and the bolt closed perfectly smooth and easily.

I measured the federal ammo to my handloads and compared to the book and everything is literally the same or at the very least within spec. I started thinking maybe I got a bad batch of Hornady bullets. But they all mic up at .257. To reassure myself that I wasn’t going crazy I pulled the soft point from the federal cartridge and inserted the sst bullet to required depth and wouldn’t you believe it, the gun Still worked perfect and the bolt closed perfect. Clearly the factory ammo is working fine no matter what bullet and I can’t tell where my measurements are off. I’ve been at my reloading area in my basement for 4-5 hours now measuring and re measuring and pulling bullets and swapping cases and I still have not solved the issues. I Read all my manuals on the dies and jumped on YouTube to some reloaders tutorials whom I have all the respect for and It Appears I’m doing everything right.

I’ve tried to close some freshly resized cases, no charge or bullet, that I just made, again this Is all once shot Prvi ammo and it still is hard to close with no bullet even installed. All my installed depths were within spec on the bullets I was using and I even tried using less and more depth to no avail. I’m literally running out of options and dumbfounded. It’s probably something stupid and I hope someone can address it for me but please understand that I am Mechanically inclined and I can use a mic and measure. Heck I even used two different mics. I know my technique and my measuring abilities are on par with average or at least proficient.

It does appear that once the ammo is shot it gets to be a little easier to close if not perfectly normal to close, (almost like being case formed/shot formed, sorry terminology is off I’m still learning)I can’t remember as I’ve done so many different scenarios. This leads me to believe that it’s in my resizing technique or maybe a bad die set which I doubt since all my measurements are within spec and it’s a brand new custom series Hornady set. I know or assume it’s not my bullet seating die or technique as I’ve pulled several bullets on the federal and new Prvi ammo and seated my SST bullets and then tried to cycle them in my gun and it was fine, closed just like the new factory round with factory bullet.

Also this is a newer savage with no issues and at least 200 rounds out of it so far and again no issues with any other ammo in it, only my reloads

If someone knows what I’m doing wrong or think I’m resizing wrong please let me know. Any help at this point is a plus as I’m running out of ideas and driving my self crazy. I’m very anal and stuff like this that I can’t solve bother me to the point that I’m typing this here at 3:00am and plan on going back downstairs and measuring more until my wife screams for me to go to bed.

Again all the measurements on the case after resizing were all within spec. The bottom of the round which is max .470 in the 25-06 mine are never above that and usually around .466-69 same as unfired factory ammo and the throat neck area shows a max of .290 and mine are all .275-.280. Max shoulder area is .441 and mi e are coming in at .438-39.

My factory federal ammo is showing similar numbers but approximately 2-3 thousand less in the head neck and shoulder area. Again my numbers on my handload reformed brass are still within spec and underside per hornady reloading manual and I believe an older lee chart I have hanging so I can’t see that being the issue but again I’m new to this.

Any help is greatly appreciated and I look forward to your advice. I want to add that I’m addicted to reloading and today at the range for my first loads I was shooting at first 50yards 1.5-2” groups sighting her in with my NIKON BDC 3-9x40. After warming up and getting my gunstand straightened out and moving to 100 yards which is where I’ll keep my scope sighted for hunting season I started getting 1-2” groups with my first handloads which I think is very good for me as I’m not a sniper and it’s way more then I will need for 1-300 yard hunting with this laser Caliber. I did have a group that would have been .75” (one ragged hole) but the fifth shot went a bit north and to be honest it was either me or I think I had a couple cases that were loaded to 50.2-50.3 vs 50 grains so who knows. Regardless I’m happy as can be but I want my bolt to cycle and close smoothly so I can get more confidence in reloading and start other calibers like my 30-06 and 375 h&h.

Please note That accuracy was with this tight bolt issue so not sure if that effected anything. I really got into this hobby as a pass time and not for any reason like money saving or competing. But I must say after today I’m addicted beyond words. Actually looking to add new calibers to my collections that I’ve always wanted but were either to expensive or pretty much non existent ammo like the 350 Remington magnum. I’m also addicted now to try and shoot .5” groups. Never had these aspirations but with handloading I must say I’m excited to have goals and trying to find a way to get there. I love the fact there are so many recipes and bullets and powders and formulas. It’s never ending and this is a hobby that I’m in for life.

Thanks to all of you and Godspeed
 
Sounds like the case shoulder is just a bit too far forward after firing. That would be the 2.0526" dimension on the SAAMI case drawing. You should be able to adjust the sizing die down a bit further to correct the problem unless the chamber is too short for the die.
 
Agree with the last two posts. Most folks don't realize that when a case is resized it makes contact with the sides of the die before the shoulder makes contact. The sides squeeze the case narrower, and since the brass has to go somewhere, it gets longer between the head and the shoulder. Then, after the shoulder finally makes contact, it compresses the length. Again, the brass has to go somewhere, so it is extruded up into the neck, which is what causes the case to grow and require trimming. But you do have to get the shoulder relocated to equal or below the headspace length of your chamber.

To measure that you would normally use a case comparator to measure a fired case's length from head to shoulder both as-fired and again after resizing. The measurement is taken from the same diameter on the shoulder in both instances. SAAMI assigns a datum diameter to the shoulder than manufacturers use for reference, but for what you are doing you will be fine with an approximation of it. We are only looking to compare the before and after, not get an absolute measurement, so the diameter of your choice is fine. In general, for smooth feed and a fast follow-up shot, you want the head-to-shoulder measurement to be about 0.002" shorter than as-fired. (See photo of an improvised comparator, below.)

The reason the sizing die can fail to get the shoulder back where it needs to be is the resizing force is great enough to stretch the frame of the press elastically. With a single-stage press this is easy to see. You have the mouth of the sizing die in contact with the shell holder when you first tighten it and you see no crack of light between the two if you look at them sideways. But when you put a lubricated case in and raise the ram, a crack of light appears because of the elastic stretching of the press frame. The solution is to tighten the sizing die until the crack of light is gone. If you have a progressive press, though, you may not be able to see the crack of light. In that instance just turn the die in a little at a time until your cases come out the right size. It may take up to a quarter turn past where you got initial contact with shell holder when you first screwed the die in, but more like an eighth of a turn is common with steel frame presses, though it can take up to three-quarters of a turn with an aluminum frame press.

Here's one way to improvise a comparator for before and after sizing comparison measurements:

attachment.php
 
"...this is a non issue with factory ammo..." Bold or Italic that kind of info. It's important.
"...trimming some to 2.084..." That a typo? Trim-to for any '06 is 2.484". In any case, it's highly unlikely you'd need to trim once fired cases. Trimming is not an every time thing. It's an 'as required' thing only. As long as the case length is between the Max given in your manual(2.494" for .25-06. Same as any .30-06 based case) and the Trim-to length you don't need to trim. (Don't forget to chamfer and deburr after trimming when it's required.) Relax. It's not the case lengths anyway.
As mentioned, it's far more likely to be a slightly under resizing thing. The bottom of the dies should just kiss the top of the shell holder with the ram all the way up. And make sure the locking ring is tight. Finger tight then a small jerk with channel lock pliers is enough. Screwdriver(Allen key) tight only with the set screw.
SAAMI case length is measured from the flat of the case head to the case mouth. No datums involved.
 
Sal: Reloading is a sort of progression of the basics and then you find that those are not quite right and adjust.

What your dies instructions say (in all cases of dies I have bought) to touch the top of the shell holder, then 1/8 or 1/4 turn more. That really sets the shoulder back (too far) but ensures you don't have what you encountered.

It works, but you have shortened case life (5 to 8 roughly) and the base cracks.

If you don't shoot a lot and or buying brass is not an issue and want to just learn, you can go with that for now.

The next step is what Unclenick outlines and that is to check where the shoulder is after the cartridge is fired , then do minimum case size where you move it back .003 or so (I overshoot a bit as I find variations, others will advocate .001 or .002 )

I have been doing that for some time and have not lost a case to a crack since I started doing it.

You can also use the case and check how it cycles in the gun but that is a bit time consuming. I prefer the tools. It takes very little turn (1/32 maybe) to go from no shoulder bump back to enough and not much more to .008.

If you do get cracked cases, you are at risk of a case rupture and gas release. So at that point the whole lot needs to be pitched, there is no saving it.

Once fired can be low cost so its a matter if you want to tackle that next reloading step or avoid the issue.
 
I’ve tried to close some freshly resized cases, no charge or bullet, that I just made, again this Is all once shot Prvi ammo and it still is hard to close with no bullet even installed
Click to expand...

Pretty good clue.

Update: My point was,your sized brass with no charge has the problem.That really narrows your search,and there is no point going off in the weeds.
IF your brass is primed first and IF the primers are not fully seated,yes,that COULD be a red herring. Simple inspection will confirm or eliminate that issue.

More likely Unclenick nailed it. If you put a banana in your hand and squeeze it,it gets longer.Same with squeezing down the diameter of your brass.Unless the case enters the die far enough to reform the shoulder,the brass can become over length and difficult to chamber.

Its good to understand that many devices that seem like they SHOULD be solid,rigid,static in use,really are not.
I used to build plastic injection molds.The 40 ton press we had in our R+D shop had 2 1/2 in or so hardened steel tie bars..the equivalent to the uprights on your "O" press. I was trained how to use a pair of dial indicators to actually measure the stretch of the tie bars under clamp.The same principle of stretch may be applied to torquing connecting rod or head bolts.

No put down on your Hornady press,I have one on my bench.Between the Loc-N-Load bushing setup and the aluminum alloy frame,some preload beyond the die just kissing the shellholder may be necessary. Maybe 1/4 turn? Not too little,not too much...You don't want to wear or break things.And do lube you toggle pins.

You can try a feeler gauge between the shellholder and die under full load,or just look for a light gap under load.

There is a $20 something tool that IMO,is quite useful. Its a Wilson,or Forster,or Lyman,or Dillon bushing type cartridge headspace gauge.(Before anyone is compelled to give the dead horse another beating,yawn,eyeroll,can we let it rest? Yes,I know "Cartridges don't have headspace" The gauge manufacturer calls it a cartridge headspace gauge...)

Its NOT a gauge to "plunk test" your loaded ammo.Some folks do not understand their value,or,they have another way to check their brass,such as Unclenick desribes with the bushing and calipers.

The gauge I describe is similar,but not exactly the same,as a dummy chamber.

It is cut so brass at the Maximum SAAMI length will be flush with the end of the gauge.There is a step ground across the open end that represents the Minimum SAAMI spec for your sized brass length.
In other words,its a Go/NO GO gauge to know if your brass meets factory load specs.

There are more uses,such as "I want my brass to measure .003 shorter than max gauge length",or,"If my case necks protrude,its trim time"

Of course,because I told you about this gauge,the critics will show up.
Its up to you to choose who to listen to.

Good luck!
 
Last edited:
When measuring the fired case, make sure the primer is removed or below flush so it won't affect your measurements.
 
I see one variable here. And that is case lube. What kind are you using and are you cleaning it off?

Now, my bench is Hornady red and... Well, it's ALL Hornady red.
 
Thanks everyone. That solved the issue. I guess a rookie mistake. And yes I only measured spent and fresh sized cases with no primer installed.
 
Ok with the primer, just make sure they are flush.

Actauly usualy we follow the 1/8 to 1/4 turn before we learn better!

I had hand loaded pistol for a long time, did some rifle about the time I had to hang it up (no place for the gear or shooting being done). I never did enough rifle to get a case crack. Sure found out when I cycle reloaded 8 times on 30-06.

We all make mistakes, rookie or not. Solved on onto the next adventure.
 
Primer should not make the bolt harder to close. Did you (like the last poor soul who had this problem) happen to have the seating die screwed down too far?
 
RC20 said:
Ok with the primer, just make sure they are flush.

Actauly usualy we follow the 1/8 to 1/4 turn before we learn better!

I had hand loaded pistol for a long time, did some rifle about the time I had to hang it up (no place for the gear or shooting being done). I never did enough rifle to get a case crack. Sure found out when I cycle reloaded 8 times on 30-06.

We all make mistakes, rookie or not. Solved on onto the next adventure.
Click to expand...
Thanks Rc20. Next adventure will be soon. I’m always adding new badly needed stress relievers (like reloading) that at some point cause late nights and stress. Ironic! I’m sure whatever I venture next in the gun world will have a few more 3-4am nights. And last night I made it to 6am with my reloading issue before I finally had to give up. Glad everyone here has been a big help!
 
Did you (like the last poor soul who had this problem) happen to have the seating die screwed down too far?
Click to expand...

Mobuck is alluding to a common problem,but its not YOUR problem.At this point,its a confusing trip off into the weeds. You have your problem with sized,unprimed,empty brass with no bullet seated.

THIS problem has nothing to do with a seating die. IMO,its not a good idea to scramble the OP's brain .

But,since it has been brought up,there IS another problem lurking in your seater die that rookies are good at discovering.

Realize most seater dies have a crimping function built in.What you DO NOT want to do is screw your seater in to contact the shell holder.That will attempt to apply a very heavy crimp,likely collapse shoulder,expand diameters,and open a whole new can of worms.

Read your die setup instructions,and realize you need the seater die back up off the shellholder by "some". If you put a piece of brass in the shellholder,run the ram up,then screw your seater die into your press,you will feel the die contact the case before it contacts the shell holder.That space between the die and shellholder is how much crush you would put on your ammo if you ran the die to the shell holder. If you want to sacrifice a piece of brass,try it..So backing the die off 1/8 turn or so from contacting the case mouth will insure no problem.If you can find a washer or something to use a setting gauge,put it in your die box.I know you have L-N-L bushings,but if your die turns on you,you can reset with precision without losing your seating setting.
 
Last edited:
I have no ideal how a reloader becomes a reloader without being able to measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.
The same goes for reloaders that that are not able to compare one case with another.

I understand to most members it is a waste to save cases as in 'do not size, do not load, do not prep all of your new cases. If my new cases will chamber and I know the length of the chamber I know the difference on length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the case from the shoulder to the case head.

And then there are all of the reloaders that have sizing down to the magic .002". If a reloader has the skill to size cases in .002" increments why doesn't the reloader size a set of 10 cases in .002" increments. I do not have less than 30 Mausers chambered to 8MM57. I do not start over everyday, I do not find it necessary to strip the bolt, if that was necessary I would use a test bolt.

F. Guffey
 
SUMMARIZING THE GOOD INFO:

- Just Full Length Size (Die screwed down on contact shell-holder + 1/16 turn more to accommodate press spring)
- Just seat with No Crimp (seating die unscrewed off shell-holder by one turn)

At this point in your reloading experience/history, it's just that simple.
Honest.
;) :D
 
- Just Full Length Size (Die screwed down on contact shell-holder + 1/16 turn more to accommodate press spring)
Click to expand...

I have always thought that was a cute saying, I also understand reloadrers are confused with too much information. I give reloaders too much information by saying; "minimum length/full length size' because there is such a thing as go-gage length and there is no go-gage length and after that there is field reject length.

If we are talking about the 30/06 the minimum length/full length sized case is .005" shorter from the datum/shoulder to the case head than a go gage length chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey
 
- Just seat with No Crimp (seating die unscrewed off shell-holder by one turn)
Click to expand...

That would be .071" +, if the reloader is a disciplined reloader the case will be trimmed to the same length meaning backing the die off 1/2 turn from the shell holder will give the reloader a .035" gap.

F. Guffey
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top