Ti .357 Snubbie..just how bad is it?

C

Carbon_15

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Due to an upcomming test battery, a sudden need has arisen for a short-tubed .38. I dont shoot or reload .38 so I'm probly going to get a snubbie in .357, as I have plenty of defence and practice ammo in that caliber. I'll probly get Ti, since I dont have a titanium gun yet.
I was just wondering, how controlable/punishing are the Ti snubbies with full-house 125 .357's? I'm not particulary recoil-shy and consider a powerfull handgun a joy to shoot. Are the 12 oz. .357's enough to change my mind on that? Can you shoot them without having to reaquire your grip and put your filling back in between shots?
To put things in perspective, I routenly shoot my 5in .45Colt Vaquero with the ultra stout Cor-bon and Buffalo Bore hunting loads. While they sting a bit, I dont find them to terribly uncomfortable. Think I'll be able to shoot a Ti snubbie magnum with any degree of speed/accuracy?
 
You used the word "sting." That's the operative word. The recoil in the scandium .357 that I shot was definitely stinging. I don't mind shooting the big stuff, but it tends to be in a big gun. 44 caliber ammo is not too bad coming out of a gun that weighs 50 ounces. Now, decrease the weight of that gun by 80% and the power by only half (maybe), and what've you got? A recipe for sting.

Accuracy is no problem as long as you have the time to nurse your sore, sore hand between shots.
 
Depending on the model, be sure to bring along a box of band-aids. We bought my mother a S&W Ladysmith .357 for Christmas 2 years ago. We took her out to the range with it for the first time Mother's Day weekend that same year (takes time for things to dry out in Maine after the winter.) We started her off with .38 SPL and she was having a ball. Then when I wasn't looking, she loads in a cylinder of magnums. First shot *BOOM* and a real startled look on her face. I took the gun from her and explained that I had brought those along to show her why she DIDN't want to use them. My point was proven. I fired the last 4 in the cylinder, and ended up with a nice deep gouge in the side of my thumb from the cylinder release. And keep in mind that this was an all steel model. I'm sure the Ti will be even worse. These guns are a REAL brute with full power magnums.

One thing you might want to look at it one of the Titanium S&W or Taurus .44SPL if you want a little more oomph that .38SPL. I've got a Taurus Titanium Ported M445T .44SPL and it shoots lighter than that Ladysmith does using .38+P.

Just something to think about.
 
Just for comparative purposes......

My all-steel .357 snubby weighs in at a hefty 32 oz and has molded custum soft rubber grips. Even with all that weight and the excellent grips, when I'm shooting Georgia Arms full-house 125 gr SJHP's, it is a real handful. Like they say, You may practice infrequently, carry is a lot. Let's face it: .357 loads are STOUT, regardless of what they're being shot out of.
 
my buddy has a Ti that he let me shoot.
dam thing was very unpleasant.
rear of the trigger guard would come back and slam my fingers.
not to mention the porting made it very loud.
just my $.02.
clown
 
I think that it's great that they have the technology to build a Ti/Scandium .357 but I went with the 342PD in .38 and consider it the superior carry piece. Some people are really into POWER over practicality though and I think that's primarily the reason they get the 340 for example. (If the Ti snubbies came in .454 they'd still get it, even if shooting it snapped their damn wrist off)! Look at all those honkin' Suburbans that 110lb women drive that never go off road nor carry more than a bag of groceries! Emotions over logic and hey, there may be nothing wrong with that in many instances! However, it is my personal policy not to carry any round that I don't practice a considerable amount with! "Practicing with .38s but carrying .357s" (what many seem to do who have the 340) is poor judgment in my opinion. I don't buy the "adrenaline will get you through theory!" It might. But it also might take out a bystander (or a few ceiling fans as in a crunch you are not accustomed to the recoil)! I also believe that even the best shooters will be able to get the .38 rounds downrange more quickly and accurately than the .357, particularly in a Ti gun. I prefer that response ISHTF!
 
Learn to fire the Titanium (or any) snubby double action and you won't have to reacquire your grip and you probably won't need bandaids. For the record, your thumb should be low on a revolver not up in the air where it can hit the cylinder release.
 
Thanks for the advice guys.
THOR, I think you hit the nail on the head, and I definatly agree with the fact that its a bad idea to "practice with 38's and carry magnums".
To reinterate why I'm getting one: I have a round of testing comming up that requires a short barreled .38. I dont have one, and my .357 has a 4in tube. Since I'm going to have to go out and buy one just for the testing, it might as well be something I can use. I dont have a singe .38 round in my ammo drawer..but I have tons of .357's of all description.
Oh yea...one last question. Can you shoot 158grain .357's in the Ti snubbies? I know some of the snubbies from a few years back said only to use 125's. Has this changed? My favorite .357 plinking load is the Aguila 158gr, its a pussycat and quite accurate.
 
Magnums in a snubby

I think the 125 limit you are thinking of was for the early SP101 Ruger. New ones don't have that problem. I have one of the later ones and it can handle magnums okay, but I can't! It's just too much jump. I suppose I coudl get used to it, but I've been shooting 38 +P+ instead. I just got a trigger job done and new springs from Wolff and it feels much better, but haven't been to the range with it yet. As for Titanium, unless they're crimped strongly, even hot 38s can shake loose from the brass and jam against the flash cone. I don't have a magnum titanium, just a 38+P Taurus 85.
 
Unless S&W has changed since my purchases (1999 and early 2002), I think the Model 340 uses a scandium alloy frame in conjunction with the "jump" from .38(+P) to .357. Like the 342, 340 still uses titanium cylinder. I've carried and shot both - a lot since introductions. Have loaned both to others and observed some of the blood mention earlier (but the lady shooting it loved the 342 anyway; has not been at range lately when I have, but e-mail indicates she wants to try 357s in 340; she's a pesonal trainer with high pain tolerance).

Regarding bullet weight, my 340PD actually has stamped in barrel something to the effect of "no bullets less than 120 grain".

Per S&W instructions, in testing 13 different factory loads of .38 and .357, 5 jumped to crimp to one extent or another - including some .357 Gold Dots and 147g Silvertips. As I recall without going to office for notes, the Federal 125 JHPs were what I settled on being "comfortable" with for "carry" purposes - in the #5 hole behind four 38+Ps (due to time of recovery between shots with .357s).

While other (much less expensive) aftermarket grips could probably do something similar to reduce recoil, I have been quite pleased with Crimson Trace "overmolded" (laser) grips on 340PD. Slight tradeoff in "concealability", but it is somewhat softer and does have room for placment of little finger.

To repeat what one of my students said to another when asked what his new (silver in color) 340 felt like to shoot with .357s:

"Do you remember what it feels like to hit a baseball with a broken bat?". :eek: :eek: :eek:

Again tho, some replacement grips may help and what "hurts" for one person may be quite tolerable for another. 340PD (black in color) had evolved as my "always" gun. :)

I suggest checking out S&Ws (time-consuming) web site (and checking carefully if you are at retail locations) as there are so many options and similar models, it can sometimes be easy to buy one and wish you had picked another ... Hope that .02 + .02 worth helps. Greybeard
 
Thanks for all of the input guys.
I had pretty much desided that I couldnt stomach the purchase of a new Smith & Wesson. I was on the way out the door to try to find a Taurus Titanium .357, when I noticed this months copy of a local classifieds paper on the coffee table. I usualy make it a habit to flip through it before I buy any new gun...it would really make me sick to find the gun i just bought for a few hundred less. I couldnt beleave my luck. Right there in black and white was a almost NIB Smith 360PD Scandium with the Hi-Viz sight. The advertised price was only $20 short of suggested retail, but if it was in "new" shape, so what. I callethe guy up and went over to take a look at it. He wasnt lieing..only 2 cylinders had fouling. It was barely a week old. Turns out he had fired 2 Federal through it and had enough. I handed him 6 bills and headed to the range with a big grin.
Well, today I did something I'm not proud of...I left the range with left over ammo. Thats never happend before. The anology of the broken bat was pretty close...but I would like to add that it was a brick wall being hit, with a full swing. The first shot busted the top of the thumb on my brand new $50 Browning leather skeet gloves (not the seam..the leather, right between the 2 thumb joints). I took the gloves off and fired the rest bare handed..skin grows back, cabaretta leather dosnt. I ended up firing 50 rounds of Aquila 158gr SJHP, 25 rounds of Remington 125gr SJHP, and a pityfull 15 rounds of the smoking S&B 158gr SJSP (these Chrony at a hair over 1400FPS from my 4in 686). They were all somewhat painfull to shoot, but the S&B was just plain unbearable. After firing of those, I actualy checked to see if the gun blew up! Pulling the trigger the first time wasnt too hard...the second pull took ever bit of will I could scrounge, knowing I had 3 more to go almost made me give up. All in all it was a humbeling experinace. I'm a fairly small framed guy at 6-1 140lbs and not overly egotistical, But this little fistfull of rage would be enough to put anyone in there place. Once I got a few 'getting to know you" rounds down range and I had a little talk with my brains pain avoidance node, I tried to do some serious accuracy work. Accuracy was very good, and I just love that fiber optic front sight. Much better than I expected. Next I needed to speed things up and try a run at the plate rack. The pistol did shift in my hand when fired. But I found that with a very firm grip I could knock down all 5 plates without having to reaquire my grip...even though it shifted a little bit with each shot. The combination of the extra firm grip and the slight shift between shots made doing so an excecise in masocism, but speed and accuracy IS possible with these little magnums.
After 90 rounds of full power .357's, the only lasting effects I have are a bruise on my index finger knuckle, a little knot on the web of my hand from hammer bite from the speed drills, and my pinky is still tingeling from getting smacked with the exposed butt. My palm has quit stinging and I think I could stand to shoot it again tommorrow. This is the only gun I have ever fired that I would describe as painfull, and it was worse than I expected, but with a little moxy and determination, you can shoot these little lightweights fast and accurate even with the hot magnum loads.
To be comleatly honest, the only reason I used hot magnum loads is because thats all I had on hand. But it was a good test (of man and machine) and will make the lighter loaded .357's feel less punishing. Any suggestions for some slightly softer shooting .357's? I'm looking for more than .38+p powerlevel but a little less than the S&B's 158gr@1400fps;). A 125 at around 1200fps should fit the bill.
 

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Carbon

You might try Ga Arms 357 in 158gr LSWC rated at 1100FPS. Its pretty mild and I shoot it in my S&W M60 for pretty long range periods. In my J frame Scandi I stick with 38spl however.
 
A friend of mine has an S&W scandium .357. With some loads it blows unburnt powder back into the face -- shooting googles are needed. The insert over the forcing cone to keep the topstrap from being flame-cut is the culprit. He is planning to send it back to S&W for them to resolve the problem. How bad is the blowback? First time a small piece drew blood. We are concerned that using it in an encounter and without at least glasses would leave the shooter blind (at least temporarily). Anybody else have this experience or is it a lemon?

Another problem is cylinder erosion in front of the .38spl rounds. S&W warned about it but it makes using .357 mag rounds very difficult. Unfortunately the pain associated with using .357's loads to using nearly only .38 spl for practice. Maybe if only downloaded .357's were used - or factory loads with the bullets pulled and a tad of powder dumped out.

He and I joke about the parallel of shooting one of these Scandium .357's and eating a plateful of nuclear bufflao hot-wings. Once or twice for the experience is plenty. But, at several hundred dollars for this gun, the experience hurts elsewhere too -- unless we can find a sucker to trade it for something if S&W can't fix it.
 
I thought about it, but in the end......

I have read that the Scandium-framed revolvers "do the rhumba" with high pressure loads. Smith and Wesson, in their literature, admits to that. I supposed all pistols do a sort of "rhumba" but the description of the way this scandium material undulates is a bit unnerving. You've also seen pictures of metal-to-metal wear on these revolvers where there is not supposed to be any. For a fairly-new product, the price-to-weight ratio borders on the ridiculous. Man, that's an expensive gun to punish yourself on! I'm going to buy another .357 mag but it will be a stainless steel model: either a S&W 649, Taurus mod 605 or a Ruger SP101. Having been up-close and personal with the most powerful .357 ammo, the thought of a handgun turning into Jell-o upon being shot, then remembering what tolerances it was supposed to return to, frankly gives me the heebee-jeebies. My former .357 mag snubby weighed in at 32 oz so an all-steel snubby that weighs less than 23 oz would be my tolerance limit. Make mine STEEL.
 
Solitar, I didnt have any problems with blowback. I did notice however that my right hand is kinda swollen and opening my hand all the way takes more effort than normal. All in all, not bad for 90 rounds of very hot magnum loads in a 12 ounce gun.
The most painfull part of the whole exeriance is that this tiny 5 shot revolver cost more than my 4in 686, even with its trigger job, velvet hone satin finish, and hogue wood grips.
 
I too have A Ruger SP101 in .357 mag and with full house loads it's A real handful, and it's allot heavier than the Smiths.
 
I agree that the hot 125 gr loadings (at 1450-1500 fps) really hurt out of my 340PD. However, I found that Proload's 125 gr tactical lite 357 magnum round (1125 fps out of a 4 inch barrel) gives a tolerable recoil, while still besting a 38 Spl +P 125 loading. Try these tactical lites (or a comparable brand loading) before giving up on 357 magnum power.
 
snubby,
Cool 1st post. I gotta question a 125 gr load at 1450-1500 fps from a 340PD....are you sure its not 1250-1300 fps? Just curious as it sounds way fast for a shorty snubby....we chrono stuff with a couple of the hottest loads breaking 1300 fps...thats fast.
Shoot well
 
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