Three scenarios... Can I shoot?

S

sbryce

New member
I have just completed a concealed carry class, but don't have my permit yet. I am in a must-issue state. I am trying to get a better handle on when I can and cannot shoot. O.K., I can shoot whenever I want to as long as I am willing to face the consequences, but that is my point. In the following scenarios, would the use of deadly force be justified?

I am in a 7-11. I am in the back of the store near the back door. A gunman enters the store and pulls his gun on the cashier. I duck behind a display shelf. To the best of my knowledge, the gunman doesn't know that I'm there, and I can get out of the store undetected. Can I shoot to defend the cashier? If I don't defend the cashier, can I pull the gun just in case I'm spotted by the gunman? (Like who's going to know? And I doubt the gunman will call the police and tell them I was brandishing a gun in public!)

This one really happened to me last January. I am working on the fifth floor of an office building. From the fifth floor hallway it is possible to look down on the fourth floor hallway. On the fourth floor, in the hallway there is a mentally ill person randomly shooting a 9mm at nothing in particular and anything at all. Can I shoot? (Would it be prudent to shoot from that distance in an office building? I'm a terrible shot.)

On a hot summer night I have left several of my doors and windows open. (Or any time of year. I simply don't ever lock my doors.) A BG enters the house. I shoot. Will a jury convict me for shooting when I could have locked up the house and possibly prevented the BG from entering?

I'm not looking for legal advice, and I realize that the laws are different from state to state. I promise I won't drag any of you into court and say, "But he said I could shoot." I just want an honest opinion from someone more knowledgeable than myself.
 
I’m a CHL instructor in Texas, and I’ll take a crack at this.
Include all the disclaimers about me not being an attorney, not familiar with your state’s
laws, etc.
-------
When I attended the CHL Instructor class, two points became very vivid and important to
my decision-making process:
1) Totality of the circumstances, and
2) Justified does NOT mean Required!
-------
They gave us this scenario (as best I can remember).

You are standing still, facing your opponent. You are carrying legally. You opponent is
rushing at you as fast as he can with a knife in his outstretched hand. He is screaming
something to the effect that he is going to kill you. Can you shoot?

(( long pause while everybody discusses where they will shoot him, how many times, etc.))

The rest of the circumstances include the following. The attacker is ninety years old, can
barely move, and he is on the opposite side of a strong 8-foot high cyclone fence!

Yep. The instructor suckered us BIG time! He was trying to show that sometimes even
the most horrible descriptions do not give you the information you need to make a good
decision.
-------

Some time ago on TFL, we discussed a scenario where a robber in a restaurant is holding
up the cashier. You’re armed. What do you do?

Well, your not in law enforcement so you are not required to do anything. If the robber
does not begin shooting, you may decide the best thing for you to do is get a good
description and not make a bad situation worse by increasing potentially deadly force to
the actual use of deadly force.

If the robber shoots someone, is it a one-shot affair (no pun intended) with only one victim
or is the robber beginning to shoot anyone and everyone in the restaurant. Even then, you
may decide it is best to grab your loved ones and retreat. Or you may decide to shoot the
robber.

Macho stories are all fine and good but remember, when the police come and the robber is
dead on the floor and you are standing over him with a gun, who looks like the victim?

Police in different jurisdictions take different views of deadly force employed by
“civilians”.
What if your bullet, shot straight and true, goes through the robber and kills a
kid?
What if the robber, trying to shoot in response to your attack, shoots an innocent
bystander?
The “What if” questions go on forever. Bear in mind that the least that will
happen to you, even if everyone says you’re a hero, is you will loose your CCW license
and your firearm during the investigation.

Worse, you may be arrested and have to sit in jail until you can be magistrated and have
bail established.
Where do you get the bail money?
Will you be indicted by a Grand Jury?
Will you need to go to trial with the associated costs (frequently $10-20,000).
What would a jury decide?
How will your family, employer, friends, etc. treat you after the incident, etc.
The list is endless.

The big factor to remember is that even though you may feel the law justifies your actions,
even though (under the pressure of the moment) you may feel your action is necessary, the
legal process may well proceed with the assumption that you should have left police
actions to the police.

------
scenario 1:
"I am in a 7-11. I am in the back of the store near the back door. A gunman enters the store
and pulls his gun on the cashier. I duck behind a display shelf. To the best of my
knowledge, the gunman doesn't know that I'm there, and I can get out of the store
undetected. Can I shoot to defend the cashier? If I don't defend the cashier, can I pull the
gun just in case I'm spotted by the gunman? (Like who's going to know? And I doubt the
gunman will call the police and tell them I was brandishing a gun in public!)"

My answer:
1) I don’t know what your state laws are.
2) In Texas, the threat of deadly force is NOT considered the use of deadly force. That
applies both to the robber and to me.
3) No one can say you are required to intervene. That is a decision you must make.
4) What I would do would depend upon too many variable to list but consider this.
- If you are hidden, could the robber have a partner who is hidden from you? Even if he
doesn’t know you are in the store?
- How many people are there with you, against you, or as bystanders?
- Might the robber simply take the money and leave? Or will he kill the cashier to
eliminate witnesses?

Many moral and legal decisions should be made beforehand (e.g. what is my personal
philosophy in such encounters, etc.)
Many moral and legal decisions must be made in the heat of the moment.

I’m sure TFLers will come down on both sides of this one, and probably give many more
variants on your scenario. I can tell you this, if I was well hidden, I'd have my .45 in my hands, probably at low ready.
-----------

scenario 2:
"This one really happened to me last January. I am working on the fifth floor of an office
building. From the fifth floor hallway it is possible to look down on the fourth floor
hallway. On the fourth floor, in the hallway there is a mentally ill person randomly
shooting a 9mm at nothing in particular and anything at all. Can I shoot? (Would it be
prudent to shoot from that distance in an office building? I'm a terrible shot.)"

Personally, I think you answered your own question. Why start a firefight when you
aren’t sure how bad the problem is or how good your “solution” might be?
-------

scenario 3:
"On a hot summer night I have left several of my doors and windows open. (Or any time of
year. I simply don't ever lock my doors.) A BG enters the house. I shoot. Will a jury
convict me for shooting when I could have locked up the house and possibly prevented the
BG from entering?"

Don’t know your laws. Even in Texas there could be a wide variation in jury decisions.
Where I live, I think the Sheriff wouldn’t even charge me. In New York, I might be in
trouble.
--------
And just like on C-SPAN, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks! :D

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 29, 1999).]
 
Well, I'm a good shot. (Ask Spectre) In the convenience store scenario I would wait until I thought the clerk or others were in imminent danger. Then I would blow the BG's up. Since I am in Georgia (and outside of metro Atlanta) I could most likely shoot them on site and be commended.

The same with the other scenarios. The laws from state to state and the rationale of enforcement of those laws is absolutely critical.

Research shootings in your locale and then look at the DA's response to them.
 
Each state has different laws and you need to check whats legal in YOUR state.

Here in Alaska, you have no "duty to retreat" on your own property. If someone is on your property and you have reason to fear "death, or grave bodily injury" then you can shoot. If one is young and healthy and the BG is also - and unarmed, then the law would probably assume that you did not need to escalate to gunfire. The same scenario with an older or disabled person would allow him or her to shoot.

When off your property, the law gets ticklish. You do have a duty to retreat but Alaska law also pushes the concept of "citizen arrest". Basically, if a citizen in the two scenario's you describe were to yell, "Stop, you're under arrest" and the perp did not stop or run away and maintained the threat to others, you can shoot.

My CCW class was taught by the Chief of Police and his views were most interesting. He went on at great length about citizen arrest, indicating that citizens actually have wider powers and greater discretion than police officers. No "Miranda" to worry about, etc. Its also the classic defense (here) in a doubtful shooting - "I was trying to effect an arrest against an armed assailant who then turned his firearm on me".

Check your local laws!

And remember, just because you beat criminal charges does not mean that civil charges will not destroy you. Shooting the mental case might be justified under criminal law but his family will surely take every dime you've ever earned or ever will earn.



------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Thanks for the comments so far. I'm not holding anyone to any advice they give. I simply want some food for thought so I can clarify this issue in my own mind. That is the primary reason I posted here. I don't know who any of you are, so you can respond with anonimity.

With just four responses, I am already getting that food for thought. I am fearful of getting a gun, tossing it into my briefcase and getting a "Lone Ranger" mentality. My conceal carry instructor offered to teach my wife and myself because he believed that we would be responsible gun owners. I don't want to prove him wrong.

To clarify a few points: In my state I can use the gun to defend myself, my family, or an innocent 3rd party in my proximity. The gun can be used to prevent a serious felony, death, or serious injury (hospitalization, stitches, broken bones, prolonged unconsciousness). In order for deadly force to be justified, the attacker must have 1) the ability to cause death or serious injury (generally, but not necessarily, meaning that he is armed) 2) the opportunity to cause death or serious injury (given the circumstances and the relative positions of the people involved, the weapon can be used against someone) and 3) the intent to cause death or serious injury. Anyone who enters my house uninvited is assumed to have intent.

My state does not require that I exhaust all possible avenues of retreat, but if there is a reasonable opportunity of escape, and I don't use it, the law may decide that I was not justified in shooting.

As for scenario #2, someone on the fourth floor was killed by the person with the gun. Soon after that, the gun jammed and two men wrestled the shooter to the floor and held her there for the police. Of course, I had no way of knowing this until the next day.


[This message has been edited by sbryce (edited August 29, 1999).]
 
Ground Level,

Thanks for the input. My plan is to buy a gun, take it to the range a few times, get used to handling it, improve my aim, and don't carry it until I get past the novelty of owning a gun. When I carry it, I want to think of it as just another tool, rather than the potential to blow away BG's.

In the 7-11 scenario, if I wasn't armed, obviously I'd keep myself hidden until I was sure that I could get safely out the back door. If I was armed, could I leave the cashier in the store alone with the gunman? How would I feel if I slipped out the back, and the cashier got shot? Would trying to intervene only make matters worse? I want to sort these things out in my mind before I wind up at the 7-11 with a BG, not when it happens. Everyone's input, even Sportster's, is very helpful.

If I never pull the gun, I'll be happy. If all I ever do with the gun is raise the number of people in my state carrying concealed by one, that's fine. If the only thing the gun ever does is make the hypothetical 7-11 BG consider the possibility that someone in the 7-11 might be armed, and prevent him from robbing the store, the gun has done its job. But, if a situation ever arises where the gun is a viable option, I don't want to just sit there wondering what to do.
 
sbryce, I don't know the laws of your state, but GA has a "three pronged test" for the (shoot/don't shoot)use of deadly force senario. This is what the police or a private citizen are judged by in a deadly force encounter.

1 The first is ABILITY. Does the BG have the ability to cause serious bodily injury to you or someone else.

2 OPPORTUNITY. Does the BG have a chance to cause you or someone else serious bodily injury to you or someone else.

3 JEOPARDY. Are you or someone else in jeopardy of recieving serious bodily injury.

If the answer to ALL THREE is yes then it is a justified shoot. Note: in GA one can not use deadly force to protect property.

I would suggest looking at your state laws. Most states have a web site for the law, look it up and check it out. Also ask the LE officers in your area they would most likely be glad to explain the law in detail and answer any questions you might have.

The most important part of any deadly force encounter is to survive it.

------------------
You are... What you do... When it counts.
The Masao
 
shades: It's nice to see someone else someone else spouting the A/O/J rule.

sbryce:
1. 7-11: Don't shoot. (a) Perps in that situation usually will not shoot. (b) You don't know what's actually happening: could be a toy gun, could be a "dress rehersal drill" set up by store owner (they happen). (c) Do you _really_ want to trigger a firefight and be a prime target? No. Stay hidden.

2. Loonie shooting: Only if you _know_ what's going on. If you _know_ that he's unstable and threatening lives, it's your call. If you're likely to miss, reconsider. Remember: ultimately, you are to protect _yourself_ and your dependents; stepping into a firefight with a loon may be bad for your health. Tough call. The fact that you can't identify anyone as being in immediate danger makes it even harder to say "yes". Many arguments have been had on similar topics.

3. BG in house: You didn't indicate whether your life was in danger. See shade's criteria of "ability/opportunity/jeaopardy". That's far more important than whether the door was unlocked (not usually considered an invitation for BGs to come in).

Again:
- Ability - _can_ the BG gravely harm you?
- Opportunity - does the situation permit BG harming you?
- Jeopardy - is the BG _about_ to harm you?

If "yes" to all three, then it's up to you to save your own life (or that of an innocent facing the same - but you'd better be SURE!).
 
A couple of things. Once I got my CHL, I found that I was LESS inclined to "play Rambo" (not that I ever DID; it just demonstrates that the mindset, at least for ME, was NOT to be the hero, unless there was NO ALTERNATIVE.)

I only pulled a weapon ONCE. Around midnight, I heard a commotion outside my house (close-in, working-class neighborhood, had some drug problems). When I looked outside, I saw a group of people in the street near where I kept my truck parked.

I watched them, and soon saw the telltale yellow flicker of fire. Thinking that these people were going to burn my truck (20 gallons of gasoline igniting in a residential are can be, um, problematic, you know?), I got my pistol, told my wife to call 911, and went outside via the side door. With the pistol pointed in a safe direction, I rounded the corner and stepped out in the street.

What I found was a group of four teenagers (15 - 17 years old, I guess) starting a fire in the middle of the street, using newspapers and lighter fluid. I had the pistol IN CASE there was a confrontation. I ordered the kids to put out the fire, and leave the area. Once they saw the pistol, they were QUITE polite.

I left them with a bit of advice: "All it would have taken was for a resident to over-react, and one or more of you might well be dead. Now ask yourselves - was this little stunt WORTH that risk..?"

They went hastily away, and I never had trouble again.

When I posted this incident on a NON-RKBA forum (just a "regular" general issues board), I was brutally castigated for "threatening children." I explained the situation in detail, but got no understanding, UNTIL a cop posted a reply, essentially saying "he did the right thing", and explaining WHY it was.

Then the COP was verbally abused! I'm telling you, RKBA is today's MOST polittically INCORRECT issue.

Dennis

Oh, the police finally arrived 20 minutes later...
 
Go to the Red Zone at the following site.
For me, I will not draw unless I fully believe a life is at stake. In Ga you can shoot to stop a felony. If there is a hole in your judgement a lawyer will find it. When in doubt read my motto at the bottom of page. http://www.recguns.com/RecGuns.html

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
I have been trained/taught that when you feel that your life or someone elses life is in danger then you may use deadly force. In the event that the situation arises the choice is soley on you and you must make a decision.

Scenerio 1: If I was in the convenince store and an armed robber came in I would first get out of his view. I would have my gun ready to fire, but would access the situation before taking any further action. If he pointed his gun at the store clerk and was very aggressive I might take the shot, providing the store clerk would not be in my line of fire. If the robber shot the store clerk I would shoot the robber. The reasons
1. He took the life of another person and could easily take the life of another person and could possibly never be apprehended by the police.
2. Now that the store clerks dead whose to say he won't check the store over for witnesses and kill them too. I'm a witness so I could be next.

Scenario 2. An insane gunman opens fire in an office building. He is endangering the lives of everyone in the building. Yes, safely make an approach and take the shot, again providing there are no bystandards in the line of fire. By shooting the maniac you have most definitly saved the lives of other employees.

Scenario 3. A burglar enters your house. Call 911. Then confront the burglar, armed of coures. If he has a gun or weapon of any type shoot him. If it can be used to kill you the burglar will probaly try. If hes got the guts to be in your house, he's probaly got the guts to kill you. If you feel your life is endanger then shoot.

It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
 
People can quote laws about this or that all day. I think the answer to all of these can only be answered by the person involved with the situation while it is occuring.

You have to decide if it is the right thing to do.

Number 2 is alot like what recently happened in Atlanta. Difference being it wasn't random shooting. (How would you know it was random?) The right thing to do would be to take the shot and end the threat.

I know lawyers love to screw things up, but you still have to do what is right.
 
Sorry guys...had to delete. Forgot to think twice and post once.

[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited September 01, 1999).]
 
This is a hard and personal decision. The ccw permit gives me the right to carry a weapon, not a License to kill.

In the case of the 711, If I thought the clerk in danger of being Executed for being a witness, I would have no Problem dropping the hammer on him. If I thought he would leave with the money, and leave everyone unharmed, the let him go.

In the case of the office, I would try to get behind something first so the nut with the gun didnt hit me by mistake. if the nut were shooting people, and they were within a reasonable range, then take them out. stop the killing.

In the case of your house. It is your house, I suppose if I was awakened at midnight with someone in the house I would feel threatened. and I would feel they were armed. and would defend my self. I havent read any laws that make it mandatory to keep the windows locked.

A good thing I would suggest is for you to get Plenty of practice with your new weapon. I Have been carrying since '84 But recently have started competition shooting. Plates, bowling pins.

I didnt know how bad a shot I was until I started. Now I am a pretty fair shot, and I can draw pretty well. The Point I am trying to make here is control. If you cant control a gun, it is useless. Could you Imagine how you would feel if you shot at the bad guy, and killed the clerk.... it isnt something you would want to live with.

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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best
 
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