Three gunshops to be avoided at all costs...

In Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Georgia.

Don't do business with them, and let your friends know that it's not OK to do business with them, either.



MAYOR BLOOMBERG ANNOUNCES GROUNDBREAKING SETTLEMENTS WITH THREE ADDITIONAL GUN DEALERS NAMED IN NEW YORK CITY LAWSUIT

One-Third of the 15 Gun Dealers Sued by New York City Have Agreed to Landmark Settlements with the City

Gun Dealers in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Georgia Enter into Settlements Consistent With Deals Reached in July

Settlements Provide for the Appointment of a Special Master, Strict Parameters for Monitoring Dealer Records and Inventories and a Penalty Structure for Future Violations


Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg today announced that three additional gun dealers named in the New York City lawsuit against dealers caught selling illegally have agreed to settlements with the City bringing the total number of gun dealer settlements to five. Big Tom’s Pawn Shop of Savannah, Georgia, Dunkelberger’s Sports Outfitters of Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania, and Cole’s Gun Shop of South Boston, Virginia, have all agreed to settlements providing for a Special Master selected by the City and appointed by the court to monitor their firearms sales activities. They have each also agreed to submit to close monitoring of their records and inventory, which may include videotaping of their sales activities and continued undercover surveillance. The Special Master will ensure that each dealer is in full compliance with all laws regulating the sales and purchase of firearms. The agreements reached with these three dealers closely mirror the ones reached in July with A-1 Jewelry and Pawn and AAA Gun & Pawn in Georgia. No other city or state has ever won such an agreement. All five dealers were among the 15 gun dealers named in the New York City lawsuit filed on May 15 and currently pending in the Federal District Court for the Eastern District of New York.

“I applaud the gun dealers who have come forward to say that they want to play by the rules and make sure that guns don’t fall into the hands of criminals,” said Mayor Bloomberg. “Illegal guns plague the streets of every major city. The landmark agreements reached today send a message that the reckless sale of firearms will not be tolerated. By increasing monitoring and accountability among these gun dealers, we’re making sure that these guns don’t end up on New York City streets or those of other cities across our country. These gun dealers have stepped up to do the right thing and I encourage the remaining 10 dealers to do the same.”

“These settlements provide another demonstration that there is plenty of room for common ground in the gun debate,” said Corporation Counsel Michael A. Cardozo. “Agreements like these show the possibility of what can be done when the focus is on public safety instead of ideology.”

As part of the agreement, a Special Master will be appointed and paid for by the City. The Special Master will have broad powers to monitor the gun dealers, including unlimited review of firearms-related records, which include trace requests and multiple handgun sale reports, as well as the ability to conduct unrestricted inspections of all firearm inventories. Employees will receive enhanced training to ensure these dealers conduct legal firearm sales and identify and refuse to sell to straw purchasers.

“Once again these historic settlements demonstrate that the City has one goal and one goal only: to keep guns out of the hands of criminals,” said John Feinblatt, the Mayor’s Criminal Justice Coordinator. “By entering into these agreements, these dealers have demonstrated they share that goal, and we applaud them for making a commitment to law and order.”

“With 90 percent of the guns used in crimes in New York originating from out-of-state, every effort to staunch the flow, including these voluntary accords, is welcome,” said Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly.

The agreement also establishes a penalty structure for non-compliance - including straw sales and other violations of federal, state or local firearms laws. Each dealer will post a bond. Fines incurred for each violation will be deducted from the bond - with the added requirement that the dealer replenish the original bond amount upon each violation. Fines for each violation vary in each individual settlement and range from $1,000 to $10,000 for a first violation; $2,000 to $15,000 for a second violation; and $3,000 to $20,000 for a third violation.

The agreements will expire after three consecutive years without a reported violation. At least every three months, the special master will certify whether the dealers have met their obligations. If the dealers go two years and then relapse, the three-year clock will be re-set.

The 15 gun dealers named in the lawsuit are located in five states – Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia. The gun dealers in the lawsuit sold guns in violation of federal and state statutes. The lawsuit asked that the Court appoint a Special Master to monitor the dealers and require them to submit to enhanced training. The 15 dealers were targeted primarily because of the large number of New York City crime guns that were traced back to them. Based only on the incomplete data currently available to the City due to federal restrictions, more than 500 crime guns recovered in New York City were traced to these 15 gun dealers between 1994 and 2001.

Illegal Gun Agenda

Mayor Bloomberg has made stopping the flow of illegal guns an important priority in his second term. To that end, he is using a comprehensive three-pronged strategy: tougher enforcement, new legislation and innovative litigation to combat illegal guns.

In July, the Mayor signed four bills into law that include tough new measures that will help keep guns out of the hands of criminals; prevent under-the-table sales and require those convicted of a gun crime to check in with the NYPD after they have been released from prison; and ban real guns from being painted to look like toy guns. In June, at the Mayor’s urging, the State Legislature increased the mandatory minimum sentence for illegal possession of a loaded handgun to 3 ½ years, and eliminated the loophole that allowed judges far too much discretion in sentencing – changes the Mayor had called for in his State of the City Address last January.

Other enforcement efforts include creating specialized Gun Courts, which have resulted in longer sentences for gun offenders, working to introduce gun shot detection cameras that will discourage the use and possession of illegal guns, and establishing a “debriefing” protocol for every felony gun defendant, which is helping law enforcement agencies learn more about the identities of gun traffickers.

The Mayor is also fighting federal legislation that would protect irresponsible gun dealers by limiting access to trace data and barring its introduction in civil suits like this one, preventing law enforcement agencies from holding gun dealers fully accountable. The mayor is also opposing legislation that would make it harder for the ATF to revoke the licenses of rogue dealers.

Recognizing that illegal guns are a national problem requiring national leadership, Mayor Bloomberg, together with Boston Mayor Thomas Menino, last April hosted a Mayors’ Summit on Illegal Guns that was attended by more than a dozen mayors from across the nation, from Seattle to Dallas to Philadelphia. The nonpartisan group of mayors discussed cutting-edge policing and legal strategies, identified opportunities for greater coordination in combating the flow of illegal guns, and signed a statement of principles to guide their efforts going forward. In June, the Mayor announced that more mayors from across the country had joined in this effort, and now the total number of mayors in the coalition is more than 80.
 
I have no doubt that this lawsuit is just another part of Bloomberg's gun-hating agenda, but part of the article caught my eye:

"The gun dealers in the lawsuit sold guns in violation of federal and state statutes."

Did the dealers, in fact, break the law? You can hold your nose and ignore the anti-gun blather, but if the dealers really were selling guns illegally, Bloomberg has a case.

Tim
 
I still think that the better solution for all 15 of the shops would have been to join in on the lawsuit that Adventure Outdoors has filed against those jerks in NY. It is sad to see those 5 shops knuckle under to the pressure. I'd join in with the "avoid at all costs" suggestion but AFAIK none of those listed are anywhere close to here, so I wouldn't have been doing business with them anyway.

FWIW -- Adventure Outdoors IS close by, and I intend to route more of my business towards them than usual in light of their taking the counter-offensive against Bloomberg & crew.
 
As far as I know, none of the gunshops/owners/sales staff have been cited for violations, either at the state or federal levels.

As far as I'm concerned, anything coming out of Bloomberg's office on any subject is highly suspect, and until it can be verified by at least 2 other sources, is treated as an out and out whore's lie.
 
Here's what I can't figure out:

If the gun dealers did in fact break the law, why are they still gun dealers?

Clearly, any gun dealer who sold a gun knowingly to prohibited felons, or who sold guns knowingly to straw purchasers, should have faced charges, gone to prison, and lost their FFLs.

But here we are talking about dealers who are essentially put on a good-behavior probation. If they were so bad, why did Bloomberg's look-what-I-can-afford administration ever agree to putting these guys back out there to do more gun business?

The article says that there is a fine schedule for additional violations "including straw sales and other violations of federal, state or local firearms laws."

Jesus, if these dealers commit these CRIMES, the idea is to take away their licenses and IMPRISON them, not force them to pay debits out of a bonded account as punishment! WTF?! :mad:

Somebody should tell the sex offenders; hey, if you're arrested for raping a child, just agree to a settlement that says if you rape more children, you have to pay $1,000 to $10,000 for a first violation; $2,000 to $15,000 for a second violation; and $3,000 to $20,000 for a third violation! What's that? "What about going to prison?" Nah! Bloomberg just wants your money! :barf:


-azurefly
 
If these dealer did infact break the law, it is under the jurisdiction of the BATF to deal with it, not a politico in New York City! If the BATF does not revoke licence status I have to assume no laws have been violated.
By agreeing to have a Special Master overlook every deal has signed their businesses death warrant. Imagine a New Yorker violating my rights to purchase a firearm legally. All these laws are BATF problems. +1, I KNOW WHERE NOT TO SHOP!
I need to find Adventure Outdoors and Buy my next purchase from them, and to show my support. Gun stores are getting hard to find, never mind ones that standup for themselves
 
Clearly, any gun dealer who sold a gun knowingly to prohibited felons, or who sold guns knowingly to straw purchasers, should have faced charges, gone to prison, and lost their FFLs.

The NRA is currently sponsoring legislation which would differentiate from illegal acts and administrative errors. It would provide penalties for those who intentionally break the law. Check out the website for more info and write you legislators to pass it.
 
I don't know about the ones Not in GA but the one IN GA, I imagine made his deal so that he would not lose everything he had. The legal fees alone would have put him under. I can understand his position as I too am a self employed person with two kids and a wife to feed and put a roof over their head. From what I hear Adventure Outdoors is having a tough time coming up with the money to pay for their legal fees. As far as I've heard the accusations are false BS, Bloomberg knows these little shops can't hardly afford to defend themselves that is why he has jumped on the little guy. I'm sure if he wanted to dig stuff up on Wal-mart it would be easily done but he (Bloomberg) would probably get his little yankee butt stomped. Don't bash these dealers for trying to stay in business, bash Bloomberg for taking advantage of his position and vote his tail out of office!!!!
 
I need to find Adventure Outdoors and Buy my next purchase from them, and to show my support.
From Gwinnett, you'd take the perimeter around to I75 North, go north and get off on Windy Hill -- watch out, it is pretty close to the perimeter, you want to be over to the right when you turn on to I75. Turn left on Windy Hill (cross over I75) and stay on Windy Hill until you get to South Cobb (NOT Cobb Pkwy) where you turn right. It will be less than a block on the right.
 
More to this than meets the eye

http://www.gon.com/article.php?id=837&cid=158

“I don’t think we have done anything wrong,” said store owner Greg Driggers. “I have seen the video where they said we did a straw purchase, and they intentionally deceived one of my clerks. They came in here and represented themselves as husband and wife. The only part of the transaction that was wrong was the “wife” filled out the paperwork, and the man was standing right beside her and handed my clerk the money. Bloomberg hired these people to represent the City of New York, and they broke the law.

“What I would like to know is why the federal government is not reprimanding New York City. What’s keeping them from continuing to break federal law? Where is it going to stop? I would like to see the City of New York brought to justice. They are calling it a simulated sale, but when you lie on a federal document and pay cash, they broke the law.”

Driggers says he had no choice but to settle.

“Bloomberg’s got millions and millions of dollars, and I don’t have the money to fight that. My only recourse was to settle, but I am not happy with the situation, and he is going to continue to take advantage of the little guy.”
 
If these dealer did infact break the law, it is under the jurisdiction of the BATF to deal with it, not a politico in New York City! If the BATF does not revoke licence status I have to assume no laws have been violated.
+1 to that. Bloomberg needs to keep his attention on the criminals in his city, and not on gun dealers several states away.
 
The problem here is that there are already laws in place to deal with FFL holders who break the law. If these dealers were in fact breaking the law and delivering firearms illegally, the BATFE would and should be going after them.

That didn't happen. It seems to me that a certain mayor is pushing a personal agenda using the court system. No law has been violated, but a man in charge of a government entity that has effectively unlimited funds is using the courts to bully someone into bowing to his personal whim. The target is forced to settle, even though he or she may be innocent of any offense.

This should be chilling to anyone who can think about what that means, even if they agree with the mayor's agenda. Why? Because the next person who is targeted by a tyrant may be you, perhaps for daring to speak out against him.

This is not about commies, or religious nutcases, nor is it about gun control, or even free speech. It is about a government entity using the laws in ways that were never intended, gaming the system to make an end run around the law in order to subvert the legal process of our nation. We need to stand together to prevent these sorts of abuses, or we will all surely hang seperately.

We are a nation of laws, not men- and a government which ignores its own laws is anarchy.
 
Bravo and well said!

This should be chilling to anyone who can think about what that means, even if they agree with the mayor's agenda. Why? Because the next person who is targeted by a tyrant may be you, perhaps for daring to speak out against him.

When a law is violated at the behest of another, is this not conspiracy?
 
What I find unfortunate is the fact that while there are a number of wealthy lawyers and law firms who COULD have take these three gunshops cases pro bono and eaten (or at least written off) the costs of defense against an opponet with unlimited funds and staff attorneys, it appears no one came forward to do battle.

While it might be a Just battle, must not be enough money to reward their efforts.

Nor, for that matter, did the firearm community (you and I) feel this particular case(s) cause worthy enough to donate funds to help keep their doors open. It may be that the NRA, JFPO, SAF and GAO did in fact send in a team of attorneys to do battle... or at least some reconnaisance to determine some actual facts. I dunno.

So they had to settle out of court in order to keep their shops open.

Mike Irwin, et al, should we really boycott such individuals and really attempt to drive them out of business because their pockets were not deep enough to keep a team of lawyers alive long enough to do battle, or should we all have rallied to their defense, hanging together united (or else we'll all hang separately)? Is that not exactly what NYC Mayor B wants? Or perchance he only wants NYC criminals armed with NY purchased/stolen firearms... keeping their dirty laundry in-house, as it were?

(Or is this whole thread based on your infamous ironic wit? :rolleyes: )

Perhaps if we were to take this logic to the nth degree only those gun shops with enormous bank accounts and assets might weather this particular future political storm. Of course, those deep pockets will also be good reasons for political outsiders to denegrate and attack as these shops are making tons of blood money, and thus, good targets for asset forfeiture. Or maybe these three shops need to dot their i's and cross their t's with greater care (as should they all?) while under the national magnifying glass.

I only know what I read and all of that reading material is slanted or facts are omitted. We know the media always include ALL the facts, they never invoke their editorial license, just as the ATF only goes by the book.

And what IS the ATF saying about these three cases anyway?

Perhaps we should simply boycott NYC. At least we'll be able to feel good for doing so and they won't really feel the financial loss suffered.

No?
 
"They came in here and represented themselves as husband and wife. The only part of the transaction that was wrong was the “wife” filled out the paperwork, and the man was standing right beside her and handed my clerk the money"

By definition of ATF, that is a straw purchase. Retailers are instructed to run the husband's info to check his eligibility if the firearm is indeed for him.
If he refuses or is found ineligible,the sale should be declined.

I completely agree that Bloomberg and company are wrong in their tactics; if the actual transfer took place, they are also in violation of federal law.
 
skipjack said:
"They came in here and represented themselves as husband and wife. The only part of the transaction that was wrong was the “wife” filled out the paperwork, and the man was standing right beside her and handed my clerk the money"

By definition of ATF, that is a straw purchase. Retailers are instructed to run the husband's info to check his eligibility if the firearm is indeed for him.
If he refuses or is found ineligible,the sale should be declined.

I completely agree that Bloomberg and company are wrong in their tactics; if the actual transfer took place, they are also in violation of federal law.

It doesn't say that the gun was for the man it says that the man handed the clerk the money. Sounds like entrapment on a technicality to me. I'm sure the ATF regulation does not say that the person buying the gun must be holding the cash to pay for the gun.:rolleyes:
 
"I'm sure the ATF regulation does not say that the person buying the gun must be holding the cash to pay for the gun."

No, you are correct; that is why I posted IF the gun is for him...


It would not have been improper for the clerk to ask "is this for you or your husband?". Had he done so, and the woman replied that it is for her, no big deal. He may have done so, but the shop owner did not indicate that he did, so I would guess that conversation didn't take place.

Even if she indicated it is for her, and the clerk suspected that she is lying, he may still decline the sale if he suspects a straw purchase.
 
"Mike Irwin, et al, should we really boycott such individuals and really attempt to drive them out of business..."

In a word, yes.

There are a lot of other shops out there that are subject to similar targeting schemes, and yet they're holding firm.

What's more important to you?

Your rights?

or...

Their bottom dollar?

If you feel that preserving someone else's bottom dollar is more important than defending against a blatant assault on your rights, then by all means traffic with one of those gunshops.

Just please don't be surprised when you get burned.
 
I disagree.

A dog knows the difference between a kick and getting tripped over.

Although I have no sympathy for one who intentionally flaunts the law, an honest mistake is just that.

The ATF has gone from being a tax collection agency to criminal detective.

Think of your last tax return. Have you ever made a mathmatical error? Perhaps taken a deduction that wasn't allowed?

You may pay penalties and interest, but unless your intent was to defraud, you aren't going to jail. (Without getting off the point too far...I'm sure, someone, somewhere went to prison for 39 years for writing the wrong date on his tax return :rolleyes: )

The notion that the BATFe can shut down your business, and another city govt goes outside its jurisdiction to ,arguably, entrap one on a technicallity is a travesty.

Governmental entities have unlimited funds to enforce a political adgenda through selective interpretation of laws.
 
Back
Top