Thoughts requested

C

cdoc42

New member
I'd appreciate hearing some thoughts on this issue before I pursue the need for any resolution from the manufacturer.

I have a Browning Black Label .380-1911 that is superbly accurate at 10 yards and probably as good at 15, but that depends more on me.

Recently, failure to both go into battery or fire has increased from occasional to very frequent. The former problem is much more likely to occur with my hollow-point hand loads and I suspect it may be due to an insufficient taper crimp. I have to push the cartridge in, at a very short distance by entering forward pressure on the slide.
If I eject the unfired cartridge and rechamber it, the problem is gone. I don't have this problem with factory ammo.

More critical is failure to fire 5 of 8 rounds. Here I suspected my primers may be too high, but this also happened with factory rounds. I find a very small dent in the primer and in many cases, it is off-center- one or two have been at the very edge of the primer. Only one of my hand loads had a very sufficient center dent that failed to fire, but I also assume that was a high primer, perhaps a primer pocket that should have been cleaned before priming. However, it is not unusual for one of those aberrant primer strikes to fire normally upon a second try. Does it sound like I may have a damaged firing pin?
 
If I eject the unfired cartridge and rechamber it, the problem is gone. I don't have this problem with factory ammo.
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Faulty reloading. Might be too long OAL and bullet into the lands, might be undersize chamber or insufficiently sized cases. Pushing the round into the chamber is doing the sizing or crimping it needed.

More critical is failure to fire 5 of 8 rounds.
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Failure to fire a reload which goes off when retried is usually a high primer. More worrisome with factory.

Indents way off center are out of battery NON firing. May be connected with failures to fully chamber or something really wrong with the gun.

Is it still in warranty?
 
If the gun feeds, shoots, and ejects factory ammo. The hand loads are the issue. Increase you taper crimp some and don’t seat the primers so deep. Should solve the problem.
 
Thanks, guys. I should add that I fired 8 rounds without a failure, mixed between hand load and factory. Then a friend tried it and got one shot off out of 8; the rest jammed or FTF.

Tangolima, I started with the hand load by plunking. My first 8 rounds went off w/o a problem. Following that I experienced what I described.

Jim Watson and MK70ss, there's a discrepancy in your opinions. Jim says high primer; MK says they may be too deep. Can it be either?

Jim-I'm not sure about the warranty; I'll have to search for my purchase date if I need to contact Browning. I would be surprised if they don't look at it or need to repair it for a charge, although the hand loader skill unpredictability may explain any surprise.

MK, some of the battery engagement issue occurred with factory rounds as well.

BTW, It was not cleaned but I only had previously fired about 25 rounds before this happened the other day.
 
cdoc42 said:
Thanks, guys. I should add that I fired 8 rounds without a failure, mixed between hand load and factory. Then a friend tried it and got one shot off out of 8; the rest jammed or FTF.
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With many pistols that would indicate that the friend is not gripping properly. Too loose of a grip and the recoil that operates recoil operated pistols is absorbed by the grip allowing the pistol to move and not enough energy remains for the action.
 
I have no idea what your skill level or experience level at gun tinkering or handloading is, so with no knowledge of that, I can tell you three things that I would do:

1) lower the COAL of these handloads, assuming the powder charge is not already at max

2) absolutely seat these primers deeper and with more force. And the way I teach this is to take a towel and cover the press or tool you use to prime — and then slowly, use gorilla force to bottom out a primer. My idea with gorilla force slowly and towel as a blast shield is to teach YOU the confidence that you will not pop a primer at the bench with slow, heavy force. I’m just trying to teach you to not be scared to bottom a primer completely

3) get in to the pistol’s slide, remove the firing pin and spring, absolutely clean out anything and everything and have that entire channel 100% dry. No lubricant in here whatsoever, NONE. Make sure all things move freely and reassemble.

These are the things I would do before contacting the manufacturer.

Furthermore, as long as handloads are involved, it seems like it’s going to be a battle to get the manufacturer involved unless you plan to be less than honest with them.

If all three above are addressed and still no joy, I’d grab a box of factory FMJ from a reputable manufacturer and try those. If those work, then I’m not sure what we should expect from the manufacturer.
 
ballardw and Sevens, you've added the usual tremendous amount of valuable assistance information that I will take to heart and apply. I have never introduced myself to the depths of the firing pin, so I will have to research that project. But it certainly sounds logical.

ballardw, that is interesting news to me and I will direct my own attention that. I've not had a similar situation with any other handgun, but teaching an old dog new tricks is not really that much of a task.

Re: manufacturer relations, my experience has been honesty is the best policy and all I'm looking for is a solution. I have not been disappointed over my 48-year handloading hobby.
 
If it does turn out to be a handloading problem, let us know and we can move the thread to that forum where you will get more "handloading eyes" on it.
 
I know this is a controversial suggestion but you might consider the Lee Factory Crimp die. I was having issues with a tight chamber in both my Storm Lake barrel on my M&P and my CZ75 SA but the FCD took care of the problem. But, I don’t shoot cast bullets, pretty much copper plated or occasionally Hitec coated and for self defense carry strictly Hornady XTP’s. I’m sorry for the brain fart, I’m amending this statement. I should have said I used an undersized sizing die, not the FCD.
 
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cdoc42 said:
I'd appreciate hearing some thoughts on this issue before I pursue the need for any resolution from the manufacturer.

I have a Browning Black Label .380-1911 that is superbly accurate at 10 yards and probably as good at 15, but that depends more on me.

Recently, failure to both go into battery or fire has increased from occasional to very frequent. The former problem is much more likely to occur with my hollow-point hand loads and I suspect it may be due to an insufficient taper crimp. I have to push the cartridge in, at a very short distance by entering forward pressure on the slide.
If I eject the unfired cartridge and rechamber it, the problem is gone. I don't have this problem with factory ammo.

More critical is failure to fire 5 of 8 rounds. Here I suspected my primers may be too high, but this also happened with factory rounds. I find a very small dent in the primer and in many cases, it is off-center- one or two have been at the very edge of the primer. Only one of my hand loads had a very sufficient center dent that failed to fire, but I also assume that was a high primer, perhaps a primer pocket that should have been cleaned before priming. However, it is not unusual for one of those aberrant primer strikes to fire normally upon a second try. Does it sound like I may have a damaged firing pin?
Click to expand...
I thought my Glock 42 was defective, but I found out it was ammo. I bought a bunch of Remington defense ammo that It would not reliably run for anything. It ran my hand loads just fine. Midway had the Rem ammo on sale and I had loaded up on it. I decided to "work on it". I ran it all through my final sizing die which sizes body and crimps. Some of the ammo exhibited absolutely no pressure, but most of it was very sticky in the die. After running through the die, It runs like a champ. So, just because it is a factory load does not guarantee it's not defective.
 
cdoc42 said:
Thanks, guys. I should add that I fired 8 rounds without a failure, mixed between hand load and factory. Then a friend tried it and got one shot off out of 8; the rest jammed or FTF.

Tangolima, I started with the hand load by plunking. My first 8 rounds went off w/o a problem. Following that I experienced what I described.

Jim Watson and MK70ss, there's a discrepancy in your opinions. Jim says high primer; MK says they may be too deep. Can it be either?

Jim-I'm not sure about the warranty; I'll have to search for my purchase date if I need to contact Browning. I would be surprised if they don't look at it or need to repair it for a charge, although the hand loader skill unpredictability may explain any surprise.

MK, some of the battery engagement issue occurred with factory rounds as well.

BTW, It was not cleaned but I only had previously fired about 25 rounds before this happened the other day.
Click to expand...
The friend is "limp wristing".
 
Sounds like something else may be going on, but here is my own experience:

Had an early 22 version, and began getting light strikes after perhaps 1,000 rounds plus some dry firing. Replaced the mainspring for somewhere around $10 and the light strikes immediately went away -- hammer was under noticeably more tension.

Easy fix, but it would really be nice if the springs didn't wear out so fast in a gun of that price. Maybe they've been improved since then, but I dunno.
 
I mostly shoot handloads and have experienced what you describe in some guns in other calibers. Kahr K9, Springfield 9mm target and even my Colt 1911 in 45 have all had the issue you describe. Reloads are not always sized down to minimum spec to the base of the brass and your chamber may be close to minimum spec at the chamber opening. I've solved this issue 100% of the time by burnishing/polishing the chamber using a fired case. I've described this polishing technique before. You need to drill out a primer pocket on some fired brass from your gun, get a few bolts to fit the hole and nuts to snug it down to the brass. This creates the mandrel for your hand drill so you can spin it in the chamber. Get some red polishing compound, spread it all over your brass and holding the barrel with a towel to protect your hand spin that brass slowly and then faster in the chamber while working it in and out until you can work the brass in and out while spinning without it just sticking abruptly someplace. You'll find you have some tight spots to work out. Once you burnish/polish/hone the chamber your gun will become more tolerant for your reloads and you shouldn't have to bump or rechamber reloads after that and will have more confidence even with factory ammo. Sometimes you'll have to repeat so don't get discouraged if it doesn't clear up on the first try. The issue is really down to maybe a few ten thousandths clearance because of some microscopic metal chips left from cutting the chamber. Right now there just isn't any clearance for reloads once your chamber has some soot in it from firing and the case is binding before the slide goes fully into battery. Burnishing the chamber will not ruin your barrel because your goal is not to make the chamber mirror smooth like a feed ramp or change its shape, but to just make sure there are no rough spots causing your brass to stick. You will find your gun will run like wet snot when you are done without having to fire 10,000 rounds to break it in.
 
Here is a possibility I learned long ago the hard way.

Was loading 38Super for 1911 with a case mouth headspace barrel.

Bullets were 3D copper plated.

I either did not flare the cases or did not flare them enough. I'll guess this was 30 years ago at least.

Seating the bullet copper was scraped by the case mouth.

The copper on the case mouth interfered with proper headspacing . The gun was not properly going into battery. Any crud stuck in the chamber can mislead you with factory rounds.

If this gun is locked breech (slide and barrel have locking lugs ) they will quickly be battered/damaged by firing partially out of battery. Don't continue.

You may have a different problem, but its something to check.

Regarding the chamber polishing advice above, I would not do that . Inexperienced DIY work in a chamber with a power tool can go very wrong.
 
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First step, clean the barrel and make sure the chamber (and the headspacing ledge) is spotless.

It is possible that some gunk there could hold the ammo back from being properly headspaced, but allow the round to move forward under the strike of the firing pin.

This would absorb some of the force of the pin, and would behave like a light strike even though the actual strike was normal.

The same sort of thing can happen when there is crud (lead or copper) on the mouth of the case, from being shaved off the bullet due to not enough case mouth flare.

And the same result can also happen due to too much case mouth flare /inadequate crimp to remove the flare. Case sticks in the chamber short of where it should be, but enough to allow lockup and firing, and the force of the firing pin strike moves it forward and can result in misfires.

Primers cannot be seated "too deep" unless the cases are out of spec, and primers not seated to the bottom of the pocket can move deeper when struck, resulting in a light strike misfire condition.

Flush with the case base usually works. Seated to the bottom of the pocket, and that is normally slightly below flush with the case base should always work.

You have an issue that has several possible causes. Work your problem by only changing ONE thing at a time. When you hit the right one, your problem will go away.

Start with a clean barrel, go from there.

Good Luck!
 
Thanks to everyone. I have a lot of investigational work to do but I'm retired and every day is Saturday. I'll add a note here when I finish to let you all know how it turned out. I greatly appreciate everyone's opinions.
 
Well, I thoroughly cleaned the gun and lightly lubed only those areas where the bluing was removed from friction. Then I loaded 10 rounds, using 5 each of previously fired and never-fired brass, all between 0.673-0.675 inches in length. I seated the 95gr JHP to 0.945" from the original 0.950" even though the plunk test was acceptable. I increased the taper crimp. I did not try to reseat any primers.

I went to the range with these cartridges and 5 Factory PMC 90gr rounds.

The first 3 rounds fired, then I had a go-to battery failure and/or failure to fire. All told, 9 of the 15 malfunctioned, including the factory rounds.

I just completed a description of my experience in an email with photos to Browning Customer Technical Service. I'll let you all know what they have to say.
Thanks again.
 
I'll be interested to hear how you make out with this. I have the same gun, and I really love that little thing. Lots of fun to shoot. But I don't have near the number of rounds through mine that you have through yours, so I haven't encountered any problems yet.

Best of luck!


Frank
 
I emailed Customer Service and received a response. The pistol is still in warranty (there is a 5-year warranty) so my option is to take it to an authorized gun dealer or send it to Browning after I complete the "paperwork" and have it sent by any dealer I choose.

I've elected to go to an authorized dealer about 60 miles away which is more convenient.
That will be in the next few days.
 
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