Thoughts on the k31?

goodolsavage

New member
My father bough one for under $300, it seems to be extremely and i mean EXTREMELY well made and tooken care of. It makes me wonder if the bolt is stainless since there is absolutly no rust on the gun and the Swiss are known for their stainless steel. Also heard one of the reasons why hitler never invaded Switzerland was because all of their infantry was trained marksmen with the k31 at like 300 meters(might be 200, correct me on that if you know it) but before anybody comments this, schmidt & Rubin were both dead when the k31 was designed and it has an entirly different bolt than their 1911 design.
 
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i should also mention his is made in 1937 but has a beech stock, here it is next to a very early Stevens 87 that i know has a walnut. The stock is also dated for 37 and all numbers matching, it strikes me because they didnt switch to beech until like 43,
 
A friend got one of the K31s when they still cost less than the scope mount for one. Shot it a bit. Very impressive, fine Swiss craftsmanship. Accurate. The only thing I didn't care for was the wrist of the stock was so thick I could not get a comfortable grip in my usual fashion. A small, personal matter.

The bolt is not stainless steel, it is just steel, "in the white", and polished. No rust or stain simply means the rifle was properly cared for. A lot of the K31s you see are in nearly perfect condition. When they aren't, its usually at the base of the butt. Sometimes the wood there shows wear/use. This comes from the rifle butt being stuck in the snow, a lot. One climbs a lot of snowy mountains in Swiss service.

Also heard one of the reasons why hitler never invaded Switzerland was because all of their infantry was trained marksmen with the k31

I think I know the origin of this...there is an old joke, a Nazi general was trying to taunt a Swiss general. Told the Swiss "you may have a million men to defend with, but I can put an army of two million on your border, what will your army to then?"

To which, the Swiss replied, "each man will shoot twice, and then go home".

Seriously, the reasons Hitler invaded other nations was for "Lebensraum" (room for his people to live), for natural resources, or to stop their armies from attacking him. Switzerland has none of these. Also their small, mountainous national terrain heavily favors the defender. The Swiss "milita" system also means that if pressed, they could put nearly half their population under arms to defend themselves. This is not something insignificant, even if you have a HUGE army to attack with.

The most likely REAL reason was that the Swiss were Europe's bankers, (even the Nazis), and both neutral and not in a strategic location.
 
thoughts on it?
it's an oddball design, shoots an oddball cartridge, never used by any military during wartime. on the other hand they were never fed corrosive ammo and were maintained by soldiers that were properly trained in their maintenance.

all in all, for an old military rifle I would recommend them to anyone looking for a shooter. if you're looking for historical I'd tell you to pick up an Arisaka or Enfield for the same price, more people can identify with them because they were used by a lot of soldiers in the great wars.

as for switzerland never being invaded, they were a neutral nation completely surrounded. 3 sides by hitler, to the south by Italy, they couldn't have withstood any major offensive for long against the german blitzkrieg. Hitler was simply more interested in Great Britain and Russia which is why he focused on northern expansion into Great Britain, Poland, and Norway rather than southern into Switzerland or Spain which was tearing itself apart on it's own. a lot of nations which remained neutral like Spain(which was kindof a turncoat to both allied and Nazi forces), Sweden, and Switzerland were never invaded because they simply weren't threats to Germany's plans for expansion.
 
Switzerland also more or less got out the Nazi's way, and did little to provoke them. Hitler obviously had plenty others on his plate that were not so accommodating. I'm sure if Normandy had failed he'd have gotten around to the Swiss eventually, but they were hardly a pressing strategic concern.

The K31's are the finest milsurp bolt guns there are due to:
-20% the fantastic shape the actions are almost universally in due to Swiss diligence and use of heavy grease over evaporative oil
-40% the superlative ammunition GP11 provides shooters --even budget minded ones, being in the +.50$ range and still available-- with match ammunition that rivals even the best made commercial offerings today
-20% the high quality and precision of the bolts, barrels, and match triggers. Very competitive compared to their contemporaries, and even some modern guns. Straight pull action is extremely fast and intuitive.
-10% the ammunition uses 308 bullets and does not operate at extreme pressures; a boon to the reloader with a decent supply of Boxer-primed factory ammunition that is readily available
-10% the ballistics are essentially 30-06 with a more efficient cartridge (shorter, stubbier, same volume), utterly proven in a very wide range of circumstances

You'll notice the majority of my criteria are ammo-related; I would argue that more than half of the appeal of the K31 is the ammunition, and that any quality long arm using it would find success and a following (see: STGW57 and a ton of single shot rifles used in target shooting)

TCB
 
My thoughts on the K31- most precision manufactured military arm of the era or maybe any era. An engineering and manufacturing marvel-sort of a weird action and operation with a pre 1900 look. As they were never used in harsh wartime conditions for the most part they have survived intact with all matching parts, excellent bores, and even ID tags to individual soldiers. The ammo indeed is match quality and not found at Wally world, but it is available to anyone reading this with the touch of a button. As I understand the K31s pretty much sweep the boards at vintage milsurp rifle matches. And they are a giveaway at $300-I bought some from AIM for $79 during the import flood heyday! Con- to realize the accuracy of which most are capable, a scope needs to be mounted and they don't lend themselves to scope mounting easily. However there are some mounts and systems out there if one doesn't mind altering an original military firearm.
 
There is an old story concerning the Kaiser of Germany visiting Switzerland during WWI in an attempt to get the Swiss to allow German troops to cross thru their country to open another front to attack Italy. Of course the Swiss will refuse. But, during the meeting the Kaiser tried to intimidate the Swiss when he was speaking with the general in command of Swiss army. The Kaiser tells the Swiss General he has a little more than 100,000 Swiss troops he could put in the field......that I can invade you with 1,000,000 German troops.....do you think you could stop us? Or words to that effect. The Swiss General replied, "each of my men will shoot 10 times and then go home."

Anyway, did own a K31 myself for awhile.

Very accurate rifle and I loved its trigger. Made the mistake one day of allowing a fellow range member shoot the rifle. He is fairly well to do, money wise, and has quite a collection of firearms.....nice to have a walk in vault in your home that's around 8' x 16' to store your firearms. LOL, he made an offer for my K31 that was hard to refuse, but told him I'd want more because I had 100 plus rounds of new ammo and reloading dies for the rifle cartridge too. He agreed to my price.

We generally shoot together each Sunday morning and after 2 Sundays of shooting the K31, he commented, "I need to scope this rifle to see just how well shoots." Next week end he's got a scope on the K31. He's kinda awed by the accuracy of his scoped K31. I commented to him, chuckling, yea, its kinda neat to have a surplus military rifle that outshoots probably more than 1/2 the rifles you own, that each cost you a heck of a lot more than the K31. He thought a second about my comment and then agreed with me.
 
thoughts on it?

it's an oddball design, shoots an oddball cartridge, never used by any military during wartime. on the other hand they were never fed corrosive ammo and were maintained by soldiers that were properly trained in their maintenance.



all in all, for an old military rifle I would recommend them to anyone looking for a shooter. if you're looking for historical I'd tell you to pick up an Arisaka or Enfield for the same price, more people can identify with them because they were used by a lot of soldiers in the great wars.



as for switzerland never being invaded, they were a neutral nation completely surrounded. 3 sides by hitler, to the south by Italy, they couldn't have withstood any major offensive for long against the german blitzkrieg. Hitler was simply more interested in Great Britain and Russia which is why he focused on northern expansion into Great Britain, Poland, and Norway rather than southern into Switzerland or Spain which was tearing itself apart on it's own. a lot of nations which remained neutral like Spain(which was kindof a turncoat to both allied and Nazi forces), Sweden, and Switzerland were never invaded because they simply weren't threats to Germany's plans for expansion.


The carcano is also a pretty historic rifle and I've asked the same question on here about it and a lot of people like them despite theyre bad rep. I think of the history more since the ammo is very hard to get ahold of, i mean the 6.5 carcano was used to assassinate j.f.k and the m91 models were unique due to the gain twist rifling it had.
 
don't get me wrong I wasn't badmouthing the K31 at all. I was simply saying that a lot of guys want the old warhorses because it reminds them of a long lost relative that they feel a special connection with, usually associated by military service. the K31 just never really served in active warfare so it loses some of that flare and people look elsewhere. this is a bit off topic but the carcano has a lot of faults which the K31 does not.

1. a nonstandard bullet diameter. regardless of model the Carcano has a bullet diameter not standard with any other bullet option. of the popular 6.5mms of the era 6.5 mannlicher, 6.5 japanese and 6.5 swede all used a .264 diameter bullet. the 6.5 carcano used a .268 and from many accounts that I've read, many barrels measure larger than that. to this day the 6.5 carcano is the only .268 diameter bullet. the 7.35 carcano also used a nonstandard bullet diameter. of the 30 caliber options of the day, the 7.5 swiss, 7.5 french, 30-06, 30 carbine, 30 luger, and 7.62x25mm all used bullets between .306 and .308. 303 brit, 7.7 japanese and 7.62x54R all used 310-311 diameter bullets. the 7.35 carcano used a .299 diameter bullet. to this day, the 7.35 carcano is the only 30 caliber cartridge to use a .299 diameter bullet. add the fact that there is no surplus left and owners are forced to reload and there is currently only one manufacturer who makes carcano diameter bullets and in limited quantities at that, and you have a rifle that is extremely hard to feed and to get good accuracy out of.

2. the wood quality. Carcanos have absolutely atrocious wood. some people here have posted pictures of beautiful carcanos, however the last time I made a trip to Cabelas in Twin Falls, there were well over 2 dozen carcanos sitting in the used gun racks. these rifles ranged from bubba'd rifles attacked with hacksaws to german converted 8mms to your average run of the mill 1891. every one of them had a stock that looked like a chunk of drift wood. I don't know if italian wood is really that nasty to work with or they just didn't give a second thought to long term storage but they were absolutely nasty.

3. I am clumping all of my other dislikes into number 3 since none are really deal killers for me but all of which are another nail in the coffin: requires feeding from an enbloc, not great sights, and weak actions.

the closest thing I have to a carcano in my collection is a Japanese type I. it uses a modified Carcano action but still uses Japanese style stock, magazine, sights, and fires the japanese cartridge including standard diameter bore. if you offered me a carcano in one hand and a K31 in the other, I'd take the swiss.
 
every one of them had a stock that looked like a chunk of drift wood. I don't know if italian wood is really that nasty to work with or they just didn't give a second thought to long term storage but they were absolutely nasty.

More than likely, those guns came out of Eritrea, Somalia or Ethiopia, where they were used (probably) for anything, including stirring large kettles, crutches, tent poles, etc.

Carcanos that have been well cared for have nice wood, and generally good (not excellent) fit and finish. Carcanos were actually used in Italy well into the 60s by police units, one of the reasons that large supplies of surplus ammo never reached our shores.
 
Back when I was a kid and before the GCA of 1968, the Montgomery Ward catalog listed 7.5mm Schmidt Ruben rifles for $17.50. I remember this well because I wasn't yet 10 years old and I was saving up for one. Well my mother caught wind of why I was saving money. I don't remember how she found out but she raised holy hell. I thought my dad would come through for me on this one but he wasn't willing to got to bat for me on this issue...

Fast forward to 2002 and Big5 Sporting goods had K31's on sale for $89. Unfortunately I could only afford one. I insisted on inspecting all the ones they had on hand and I picked the best looking one and put it on layaway... I was riding my XS1100 that day so I couldn't have taken it home on my bike anyway. I picked it up a few days later and it's a beauty. There's a few dents in the wood but the metal is flawless.

I've since picked up a couple hundred pieces of brass but I still haven't shot it yet. I plan to load 100 rounds of reduced power loads with copper plated bullets for me and my grandsons to shoot. I wish I had a grandpa like me when I was kid...

Since it took me so long to get a Swiss rifle I don't think I could part with it. It will have to go to one of my grandkids...

Tony
 
don't get me wrong I wasn't badmouthing the K31 at all. I was simply saying that a lot of guys want the old warhorses because it reminds them of a long lost relative that they feel a special connection with, usually associated by military service. the K31 just never really served in active warfare so it loses some of that flare and people look elsewhere. this is a bit off topic but the carcano has a lot of faults which the K31 does not.



1. a nonstandard bullet diameter. regardless of model the Carcano has a bullet diameter not standard with any other bullet option. of the popular 6.5mms of the era 6.5 mannlicher, 6.5 japanese and 6.5 swede all used a .264 diameter bullet. the 6.5 carcano used a .268 and from many accounts that I've read, many barrels measure larger than that. to this day the 6.5 carcano is the only .268 diameter bullet. the 7.35 carcano also used a nonstandard bullet diameter. of the 30 caliber options of the day, the 7.5 swiss, 7.5 french, 30-06, 30 carbine, 30 luger, and 7.62x25mm all used bullets between .306 and .308. 303 brit, 7.7 japanese and 7.62x54R all used 310-311 diameter bullets. the 7.35 carcano used a .299 diameter bullet. to this day, the 7.35 carcano is the only 30 caliber cartridge to use a .299 diameter bullet. add the fact that there is no surplus left and owners are forced to reload and there is currently only one manufacturer who makes carcano diameter bullets and in limited quantities at that, and you have a rifle that is extremely hard to feed and to get good accuracy out of.



2. the wood quality. Carcanos have absolutely atrocious wood. some people here have posted pictures of beautiful carcanos, however the last time I made a trip to Cabelas in Twin Falls, there were well over 2 dozen carcanos sitting in the used gun racks. these rifles ranged from bubba'd rifles attacked with hacksaws to german converted 8mms to your average run of the mill 1891. every one of them had a stock that looked like a chunk of drift wood. I don't know if italian wood is really that nasty to work with or they just didn't give a second thought to long term storage but they were absolutely nasty.



3. I am clumping all of my other dislikes into number 3 since none are really deal killers for me but all of which are another nail in the coffin: requires feeding from an enbloc, not great sights, and weak actions.



the closest thing I have to a carcano in my collection is a Japanese type I. it uses a modified Carcano action but still uses Japanese style stock, magazine, sights, and fires the japanese cartridge including standard diameter bore. if you offered me a carcano in one hand and a K31 in the other, I'd take the swiss.


Did you really say weak action the carcano has? It's actually pretty strong. Yes the mag is horrible the wood is odd.. I wouldn't say bad because thats preference. Its just really light wood. Sights? Uh depends. There's a guy who once set. Record of i think 1000 yards or a mile with a m91 but has long been beaten by himself. Look up people TRYING to blow a carcano action forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?323374-Carcano-blow-up

I dont know where you heard that the action is weak but thats about as false as saying the 03 springfeild wasnt a copy of the mauser.. I belive the wood is like it is for weight purposes though. For its time it was a light war rifle.
I own a carcano and have shot many rounds through it, as much as it breaks the bank i still find myself most excited when shooting that gun, the k31 doesn't put that grin on my face, neither does my mossberg 500 or my savage 93, neither so the muzzle loaders or any gun really, read up on a gun and have a valid argument before you dis on it. Because the carcano was really the head of its time in 1891 and the basic action lasted until 1945. If there was a major issue the Italians would have changed it. Aside from the dumb enblock i wouldn't change it. And the Germans even used it with their 8mm mauser and trusted it
 
One of the best rifles ever made. Extremely good accuracy and a wonderful design. And I favor the Beech Stock over Walnut. For $300, Mine came with 5 strippers pre-loaaded with ammo (GP11), a pack of 60 rounds of GP11, the rifle(with ID tag), he also gave me a Swiss "Bread Bag", which is a satchel like thing that mounts to a bicycle that was issued to troops, and oddly enough, it had a white, cinch sack with bread crumbs still in it :D.
 
I dont know where you heard that the action is weak but thats about as false as saying the 03 springfeild wasnt a copy of the mauser
ok first of all you need to look at the rifles that the 03 springfield replaced. the springfield has as many features in common with the Krag as it does with the mauser.

completely different take down methods, decocking piece(only found on cock on close mauser variants), bayonet lugs, magazine disconnect. superficially, looking at the right side of the gun sure the springfield looks like a clone of a mauser but there are several glaring differences in the overall design. that is like claiming that pattern 14 enfields and model 1917s were copies of the mauser 1896. they may have been based on the action but the end product is anything but a clone.

as for weak actions the germans proved this when they converted several to 8mm and are considered more dangerous to shoot than low serial number springfields. for the low pressures that their intended cartridges are capable of packing, sure the carcano has a plenty strong action but compared to other rifles of the age they just were not strong at all, one reason you don't see a lot of rechambered carcanos out there.
 
I've "heard" there are .308 conversion in the UK. As for as strong as others: i havnt found the article but people have, p.o ackley done tested on pretty much every surp rifle in the day and it competed with mauser and all of them. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an 8mm conversion or a .308 conversion. I guess instead of bowling up the action it throws the barrel a few threads. Though i wouldn't say its better than the other actions but its certainly not near as bad as people think.
 
as for weak actions the germans proved this when they converted several to 8mm and are considered more dangerous to shoot than low serial number springfields. for the low pressures that their intended cartridges are capable of packing, sure the carcano has a plenty strong action but compared to other rifles of the age they just were not strong at all, one reason you don't see a lot of rechambered carcanos out there.

If you have a reference for this I would be interested in reading it.

When I look at the K31, unlike earlier versions, it is a front locking action and assuming it is properly heat treated and made of excellent materials, it should be as rigid and strong as any other military bolt rifle. In my opinion, the earlier rear locking versions are in the same class as Lee Enfields; not so strong.

I like the cartridge and think it was a better military design than the 30-06 for two reasons: It is shorter and the rim is thick. Both of these are advantages for automatic weapons, which would hardly been a consideration for the designers of the M1903 and the 30-06, but, in time, these two factors became primary reasons for going to the 7.62 Nato. If we had simply copied the 7.5 X 55 Swiss we could have avoided the conversion.

Over my chronograph I find Ball ammo pushes a 174 grain bullet just at 308 Win velocities, and my handloads pushed a 168 just a little faster without any pressure problems.

Code:
[SIZE="3"][B]7.5 x 55 Swiss  Model K-31[/B] 

AP11 Swiss Ball headstamp DA 78						
24 Mar 04 T = 70 ° F								
					
								
Ave Vel =	2565				 	 		
Std Dev =	11				 	 		
ES =	23				 	 		
Low =	2551				 	 		
High =	2574				 	 		
N= 4

168 gr Nosler Match  51.0 gr AA4350 INDEP brass and primer OAL 2.850		
22 Dec 01 T = 58 ° F								
Ave Vel =	2536					 		
Std Dev =	17					 		
ES =	45					 		
Low =	2510					 		
High =	2555					 		
N=	9							
								
								
168 gr Nosler Match  52.0 gr AA4350 INDEP brass and primer OAL 2.850		
22 Dec 01 T = 58 ° F								
Ave Vel =	2624							
Std Dev =	31							
ES =	72							
Low =	2588							
High =	2660							
N=5		[/SIZE]

The K31 is too complicated for a general issue rifle. I have been handed Mosin bolts to reassemble because the owner could not figure out how to put it back together, and one owner was a retired Army Officer. It is hard to believe but for some folks, door knobs are a complicated mechanical item, and rifles need to be as simple as possible for these people. A K31 bolt has too many parts and would totally confuse the mechanically challenged. The K31 is an expensive rifle to make. I took one to a gun designer friend of mine, he was examining it, saying “good”, “good”, and then he said: “this is an elliptical cut, I don’t know how they did that”. Based on his comments there were some very specialized machine operations to make K31’s and that would have been a disadvantage if the Swiss had to farm out work to small machine shops. After losing a number of Armies and all their equipment in Russia, the Germans learned the value of making rifles fast and cheap and the HK91 design reflects this. I do not believe the HK91 was meant to be rebuilt, rather the emphasis is to make mass quantities as quickly as possible. The K31 reflects an earlier era when rifles were built to last for 90 years, even though the average lifetime of an Infantryman in a major war is about 9 months.

Also heard one of the reasons why Hitler never invaded Switzerland was because all of their infantry was trained marksmen with the k31 at like 300 meters(might be 200, correct me on that if you know it.

I am certain that the actual reasons were far more complicated than this. http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/switzerland-second-world-war-ii.html In a contest between a Tiger tank, Stuka, the 88, and a K31, the Tiger, Stuka, and 88mm will win every time. It is my opinion that Hilter received more benefits by not invading Switzerland, than he would have received had he taken over the country. For the Swiss, they were lucky that Germany's resources were over stretched fighting England, Russia, and America, because there were German invasion plans.
 
While the Nazi government did a lot of "stupid" things (stupid in this case meaning things that were even recognized at the time as not being in their best interests), one stupid thing they never contemplated was conquering Switzerland.

Quite likely there was a contingency plan written, and filed somewhere, but it was never a serious consideration, despite the fact that they may have blustered and saber-rattled about it.

Simply put, Switzerland would have cost more than they could have gained, from both a military and an economic point of view.

Essentially, Switzerland as a neutral nation (and also a customer) was more useful than Switzerland as a conquered nation would have been.

And lets no overlook the famous "Swiss bank accounts". They worked for Nazi Germany the same way they worked for everyone else. Why would they risk that, particularly, a very valuable service both for nations, and individuals.

I could see a worst case situation, something like "I am very sorry Herr Reichfuehrer, but the bank simply has no record of your account. Ja, I know you can shoot us, but that won't get you any money."

The Swiss have a reputation for being stubborn about some things, lots of mountains that they have been tunneling in for centuries, and a degree of pride in their craftsmanship about things. I'm firmly convinced that by the time any German troops could have seized the banks (assuming there were any still standing to be seized), there would have been very little in the way of physical assests still there.

And if I can think of this, I'm sure some German planners could have, as well.
 
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