"Thou shalt not pack heat"

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Commentary

Thou shalt not pack,
saith the preacher


© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

According to a report published last week by Christianity
Online, leaders from the National Council of Churches
have decided to push for more gun control legislation in
an effort to end the "scourge" of gun violence in the U.S.

The report said the "(NCC) has come out in support of
legislation in the US Congress aimed at limiting the
ownership of guns," vowing to spend the next legislative
session "(making) the issue one of its top advocacy and
legislative priorities. ..."

Robert Edgar, the NCC's new general secretary, said,
"We are aware that new laws alone will not end the wave
of gun violence sweeping the nation, but we are
convinced that the number of shootings will be reduced
by making it harder for individuals to purchase the kinds
of guns which have no function except to injure and kill
humans."

There are a number of things wrong with the NCC's
position and Mr. Edgar's comments specifically, but
taken at face value a couple of them are more glaring
than others.

First of all, it is unimaginable that a national organization
of churches would risk entering the fray of politics over
any issue, considering that "a separation of Church and
State" is a cornerstone of American society. Individual
denominations have often come out in support of or
against certain social issues (gays, abortion, family values)
but rarely do you see one that takes a position on a
purely political or politicized issue (like guns).
Denominations make appeals to Congress to change
laws, but it sounds like the NCC is set to enter the
lobbying business -- and that's a no-no for a church
group.

Secondly, the new leader of the NCC has no new
information to justify his false claims that "more guns
equal more crimes." His statistics, which he stole from
President Clinton, are absurdly incorrect, even by Uncle
Sam's own numbers:

Edgar said, "Every day in the US an average of 87
people, 12 of them children, die as a result of gun
wounds, a figure which is rapidly approaching the rate of
deaths through car accidents." That's just plain wrong; I
know -- I wrote the story disproving these "facts." Gun
deaths for adults and children are nowhere near what
cars claim every day, and the child death rates he cites
are ludicrous (and incorrect).

His use of "the children" to justify more gun control is also
reprehensible in and of itself, but statistically speaking it
has been proven time and again that removing guns from
American society only leads to more violent crime. And,
shootings in schools -- Edgar's primary "reason" for more
gun control -- are similarly rare. Too rare to justify
punishing law abiding people again.

Third, and most important, is the issue of constitutional
precedence: How is it that a national church organization
can call for further subjugation of a constitutional right
without realizing the hypocrisy of using one constitutional
right to call for the limitation of the other?

The nation's churches, protected under the First
Amendment, have no business calling on Congress to
limit a citizen's right to practice, uphold, believe in, and
defend the Second Amendment.

My guess is, however, that Mr. Edgar doesn't see his
pretense of piety. Using the well-worn and tired excuse
that his group's actions are "for the children" just doesn't
wash with me anymore; it is simply an excuse to disarm
more people. There is no doubt in my mind that my kids
and my wife, along with the family dog, are better
protected because my house is equipped with firearms
and I know well how to use them.

The NCC's "Interfaith Call" for all churches to support
this new assault on the law-abiding, church-going
Americans who happen to believe in their right to be
armed, is a mistake that is sure to backfire.

But it won't be Uncle Sam, via the Clinton administration,
that makes the NCC pay for their hypocrisy. And it
won't be the establishment media either because, after all,
this is an anti-gun message and that's "politically
correct." If, however, NCC was calling for an end to
abortion or speaking out in support of the Second
Amendment, rest assured that there would already be
calls from "on high" demanding to know why a religious
organization dares to venture in the domain of the "state"
-- politics. The IRS comes to mind.

As a practicing Catholic, I go worship God Almighty in
the local church of my choice because, unlike in
totalitarian societies:

I'm allowed to worship as I please

It's my right

It's a right protected by the Constitution

The right to keep and bear arms is a right that is equally
protected, equally a "right," and equally available to be
practiced (or not) by Americans who are allowed to
make their own choice.

NCC and Mr. Edgar are, however, abusing one
constitutional right in order to effectively stymie or
eliminate another constitutional right. This is so
hypocritical it's obscene.

Edgar, a former U.S. congressman from the state of
Pennsylvania, ought to know better than this. But then
again, when have most congressmen been accused of
knowing too much about the Constitution that they
swear to uphold and protect?


Jon E. Dougherty is a staff writer for WorldNetDaily.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC - The NCC and WCC still very much embrace things like the "liberation theology" that Pope John Paul drove out of the Catholic Church early in his tenure.

I don't know if it's their liberal American education or what but most of these organizations have distinct socialist leanings.

I hav a younger brother who is a United Church of Christ minister and we haven't spoken for years over these issues. These "mainstream" churches (as opposed to the evil Christian Right) have been involved in furthering the mainstream liberal agenda for years. I can remember hearing sermons against "parochiaid" (which was an Illinois proposal to provide some public funds to parochial schools in the form of bus routes etc) back in the early 70's. I think the NCC wants to represent the "State Religion" as is forbidden by the 1st Amendment. You never hear anything bad in the press about the Methodists, United Church of Christ, Episcopalian etc. It's only Catholic, Baptists and the others that refuse to compromise on the key issues of abortion, gun control, individual rights who are demonized.

I don't think the NCC has to fear a backlash in the press after all, they have the ability to influence large numbers of people and they spout the party line. I think they can actually expect good press out of this and it will give the press a chance to demonize the so called Christian Right some more and hold the NCC up to the country as an example of "proper religion".

Jeff
 
along the same lines...

Texas Catholic Group calls NRA IMMORAL. Read!

(from another forum)

Please join me in an e-mail effort to educate the
Executive Editor of the Texas Catholic.
After reading the following, e-mail contact information
is at the end of the page along with the web site URL.

*****************************************************************

NRA: Immoral organization

By Bronson L. Havard, Executive Editor
Texas Catholic
texascatholic@msn.com

THE NATIONAL RIFLE Association is one of the most immoral organizations in America today. We have said this before, but repeat it now after the NRA launched its newest propaganda campaign against reasonable gun regulation proposed in Congress.

Every citizen should raise his or her consideration of the gun issue in America to the level of moral conscientiousness. The NRA consistently fights to thwart every social effort made at reducing the gun violence through better gun regulation. Gun violence plagues our schools, our inner-city neighborhoods and even our churches (Remember the Fort Worth Baptist church?).

Consider the NRA's newest tactic of distortion and lies. Its executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, interviewed on a national television program, charged that President William Clinton "needs a certain level of violence in this country . . . a certain level of killing to further his political agenda. . ."

After that remark, there should be a heightened level of concern on the part of every citizen over the NRA. That charge is so vicious, so irrational, that it reveals the deepest, darkest nature of the NRA, whose sole reason for existence is to lobby on behalf of the interests of those who manufacture and use guns.

The president, who cannot seek re-election, promptly and properly invited the NRA to tell it to the parents who have lost their children to gun violence _ premeditated and accidental. Catholics should not give any support to the NRA. It would be immoral to do so.
_ BLH

Article can be viewed at:
http://www.cathdal.org/Editorials.htm

Comments can be directed via e-mail to:

Bronson L. Havard, Executive Editor
texascatholic@msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

United Methodist Church's gun control wish list!
http://umns.umc.org/backgrounders/guncontrol.html

Joe

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Joe's Second Amendment Message Board

[This message has been edited by nralife (edited March 27, 2000).]
 
maybe the NCC should read the Bible (see my signature). this is one more reason that religion and politics don't mix. i am a card carrying Baptist but i will withdraw my support, moral and financial from any church or church organization that supports this view.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
So, just who in hell does the Texas Catholic Org think the NRA is made up of??
Catholics (betcha there are a buncha Texans), Jews, Mormons,Protestants, Agnostics, Atheists, Pagans, Buddists (I know him :))...

seems like a an immoral lot to me all right ;)

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Just another example of why I have no use for 'organized' religion.

Pshaw. You just have to pick the right organization. Numerous denominations (such as the Reformed Presbyterian Church) are quite supportive of the right to bear arms...especially as the Bible is quite clear that defending your family is paramount.
 
Just responded to the 'Texas Catholic' editorial, since I am Catholic and 'qualified' to do so. Another case of half-educated people who never really did their homework, much less thought it through and came to sensible conclusions. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to deter them. Some people are just so open minded that their brains fell out.

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I'm a christian but I must confess to never being much of a church goer or Bible scholar. Perhaps on of our more learned members can help me out here. Somewhere in the Bible doesn't it say something to the effect that failure to defend your life when threatened is a sin? That life is precious and should never be given up without a fight?

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Politically, Fashionably and Aerodynamically Incorrect!
 
Grayfox & nralife:

Yes, life is precious and the Catholic religion in their official teachings requires it to be defended. See my reply e-mail to texascatholic below (I might have got a little carried away but I was on a roll).
TFL-flame.gif
Share what you know, learn what you don't
TFL-fud.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>According to the "Official Catechism of the Catholic Church", Part 3, Section II, Chapter 2, Article V, Paragraphs 2264-2265 ... "Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the community."

I read this to mean that I have a right and a duty to defend myself and my family from unprovoked violence and since the courts have ruled that the police are not obligated to even respond to our calls for help, even in life threatening situations (see Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 [D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981] if you do not believe me), I feel that a firearm will provide me with the protection that I may need.

The NRA's position is to support the rights of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms whether for sport or for self defense. Additionally, they support harsher punishment for criminals. I fail to see how this could be contrary to the Catholic way of life. If the means to protect ourselves is taken away from us and our government will also not protect us, then THAT is contrariety to the Catholic way of life (I refer you again to my opening quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church) and not the other way around.

Many "common sense gun control laws" that have been passed in recent years have done nothing to reduce crime but have put us (the innocent) more at risk to violence. I'm not going to go through all of them (if you're interested, I will do so in the future) but I will cite a few examples.

Let's start off with these "gun safe school zones". Are you aware that there have been more school shootings after this law was passed than before. Let's look at the tragic shooting in Colorado. There was a law preventing anyone with a loaded firearm from being on school property. Why wasn't that law enforced? Why did so many have to die? Could it be that those that wish to do harm have no intention of obeying the laws -- any laws, including gun laws? The only thing that these "gun safe school zones" did was provide a "safe zone" for the evil doers since no law-abiding citizen now has a firearm to shoot back at them. Maybe the knowledge that someone is armed or COULD be armed, would make some of these shooters think twice before going on a shooting rampage.

If you disagree with this way of think, kindly explain why the communities which exercise less gun control also have less VIOLENT crime (New York VS Florida; New Jersey VS Vermont, etc.). Again, I submit it is because the criminals conclude that a potential victim might be armed and they themselves do not wish to be hurt during a violent confrontation.

Another law which helps the criminal but hurt the innocent is this 10 bullet limit on gun magazines. This law was passed with the intention of stopping mass shootings. However, evil doers will usually plan things out ahead of time and bring extra magazines with them. This only hurts the innocent home owner who is trying to protect himself and his family as he is required to do based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Now you may ask why would someone need more than 10 rounds in his gun. Well consider the fact that trained police officers who do this for a living miss about 50% of the time in actual shootings. It is reasonable to conclude that if a trained police officer can miss half of the time, a less trained civilian will have a higher miss ratio. Maybe only 4 or 3 bullets might hit their mark.

Contrary to what is seen on TV and in the movies, it may sometimes take more than one shot to stop aggression and if there is more than one intruder present, then the 10 round limit places the law-abiding home owner at a serious disadvantage.

I can go on and on but I trust that if I have not already made my point, I doubt that I will be able to no matter how much more I write.

I sign myself as a Catholic NRA member ... Sections obmitted and not posted due to space considerations ... I am an active Catholic and I am an active member of the NRA. I don't see a problem with that. After all, scripture has it: "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36). I believe that owning a gun better enables me to defend my own life and that of my family ... "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace." Luke 11:21).

While I may not agree with EVERYTHING that the NRA stands for, it does not take away from the fact that they have done more to preserve the firearm rights of this country than any other organization. And as a Catholic, I think that is a good thing. After all, our own Catholic Church has done things in the past which our Pope has recently apologized for.

One final point with regard to the Fort Worth Baptist church. Ask yourself this question ... If you were a member of a hate group or subscribed to those type of ideas and wanted to do violence against a particular religion, would you pick a church in a community which allowed it's members to be armed (if they wanted to) or a church in a community where it was illegal to bring a firearm to church?

Even if I was not armed, I would feel a whole lot safer in a church where some of the other members present MIGHT be armed because those with evil designs would think twice about committing acts of violence there because of the possibility of being injured or killed in the process.

I invite you to rethink your position on this matter and even consider joining the NRA. Work with us to support legislation which is tough on criminals but does not limit the ability of the law-abiding citizen to defend himself and his family.

Thirty years ago you could buy a gun through the mail and a 16 year old lad could go into the woods with a rifle and spend an afternoon shooting by himself. We had no school shootings back then and I remember sleeping with the windows open at night. Since then, we have passed over 20,000 gun laws. We should be safer than ever, but we're not! Why? Maybe it's because criminals do not obey laws -- including gun laws. All these laws have done was to restrict the ability of the law-abiding citizen to defend himself. And the criminals, aware of our reduced ability to defend ourselves have taken advantage of the situation.

How many more lives must be lost to violent crime before we realize that we're going in the wrong direction?[/quote]

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited March 27, 2000).]
 
The Judaic Talmud (Catholicism's Old Testament blueprint) clearly states:" If a man comes to kill you, rise up quickly and kill him first". Self defense is an ancient and respected paradigm. A sword belted at the side was an obvious deterrent to potential harm-doers. What is the modern equivelant? In America only the stare, set of jaw, lift of chin, and straightening of shoulders shows resolve and courage. We are not allowed to arm ourselves outwardly in this "civilized" society...
There are good organized religions, and misguided same. It seems that the money grubbing evangelists are only following the footsteps of our "elected representatives" into the temple.

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Treason doth never prosper. What's the reason? For if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason." - John Barrington
 
Well - I guess it's one way to get the badguys into church...

Creating a buffet for the criminals probably isnt what they had in mind...

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"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." -Nixon
 
Bunkster:
Thanks. You really hit the nail on the head. NCC has been a far left, communisitic organization all along. See the 9th paragraph in the article.
 
Question to all.Has anyone ever received an answer to any email to a religious orginazation about their anti-gun stance.
If so what did they say?
Bob
 
I know of a man who, for years, had stood guard over his synagogue on holidays because attacks tended to happen during festivities. He was lucky and never had to use this guns (1911 on him, Garand in the car).

A gentleman who goes to Wedgewood church posted on TFL after the shooting there lamenting that neither he nor his wife were there, else their Webleys would have made a material difference to the outcome of the massacre.

Gleam what you will from this, but a gun would be appropriate to any environment, churches included...in my humble opinion.
 
And mine, Oleg.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
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