this seems interesting

A

alan

New member
Mosaic 2000, heard about on NRA site this evening, seems to be a "profiling" program, to be run in the public schools, by none other than our friends at The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. What BATF is doing in the schools might itself be an interesting question, but consider the following.

"Profiles" of schools kids, based on their responses to possibly loaded questions, as well as the possible "profiling" of their families, by BATF or ANY federal agency, based on the responses of children.

Sounds as if that might be something that has absolutely no place in this country, or at least, such things didn't use to have any such place here. Do they, or should they have any now??
 
From the standpoint of Liberty and a Free People, no. However, with every right comes a responsibility, and our society at the moment is grading somewhere between D- and F.

So, given the political pressures on our government to provide us with a totally secure life, I'm not at all surprised at this sort of effort to avoid another Columbine. I doubt it will help; I don't like it; but that doesn't mean I don't understand why they're trying...

Later, Art
 
Art Eatman:

I agree with the first part of yur response, except that I believe you might be overly generous in your grading.

Re your reference to "political pressures on our government to provide us with a totally secure life", we part company.

In the first place, do you actually believe that any sentient adult really believes that the government is capable of providing any such thing? I would think not.

Secondly, while there are likely some amongst us that seek such "perfection" as you mention, why should governmnent pay them any more attention than it pays to those who would accept less than perfection, and prefer to be left alone, and are willing to fend for themselves.

Bureaucratic aggrandizment is one possible answer, the desire to exercise "power" , for it's own sake, might be another. To claim that "political pressures", or some overewhelming desire to "do good" is behind such as Mosaic 2000, or any number of other government scams is, in my view, less than credible.

By the way, I do not subscribe to "conspiracy theories", but that does not mean "that I do not understand what/why they are trying", and I too do not likle what I see.

Look forward to "later".
Alan
 
Just for info,

The mosaic programs are produced by Gavin DeBecker's(sp?) company. There are several version, some of which are for gov/leo use only.

For those who don't know who he is, he wrote the book The Gift of Fear. While he is an anti (truly messed up childhood)' I very much recomend his book. Ignore the antigun part and the rest is very, very good information dealing with awarness and profiling.

Jason
 
Yup, read it. It is a horse pill ain't it Jason. Still doesn't negate the scary potential of the "program". Not happy with this.
 
'Profiling' is bogus psycho-trash. It rests on the logical howler that if all members of a class have a characteristic (for example, all redheads have freckles) that the obverse is true (i.e. then all freckled people are redheads.) Anyone with any training in logical thought recognizes this as totally wrong, yet government agencies from the FBI to the DEA to the BATF have wholeheartedly embraced the concept. All you can do is shrug, when they point out that '...they caught Ted Bundy that way..." (as I actually heard one Fibbie claim, totally erroneously.) I am personally a perfect case in point...as a preteen, a wild street kid with a switchblade in my pocket, a loner and subject to the ridicule of my peers, here I am sixty years later still with no wants or warrants, unhung and not likely to be. Bah to fools who have not learned to think!!!

------------------
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
 
This 'new" economy that the masses have been laboring in for the last decade and a half makes it much easier for the government,whether local or federal, to basically run things the way they want without much protest from the workers(taxpayers) The family has both parents working 2 and sometimes three jobs, and the children in day care centers. By the time the parents get home they are beat to death . A half hour of dan Blather giving them the "'party line" is their total awareness of what is going on. The Global plantation economic system works out perfectly for Big Bro Govt in Dc and satelite state governments. In the fifties and sixties it was rock around the clock. Now it is work around the clock. Only the people lose in such a system. The government makes out literally like a bandit. Revenue goes up,taxes go up, but the masses go down into corporate slavery.My humble opinion,but i would take it to the bank(Banksters Bank).
 
Batf & Mossiac in our schools will,sooner if not later, result in unjust arrests and big troubles for many innocent American families. This is just the type of thing Adolf Hitler would have liked. The BATF get to grab more power unto them selves and more jobs, employees and funding. Dangerious and freedom infringing precidents are set. The Big Brother Police State Has Arrived. George Orwell's 1984 commeth true. When do the book burnings start? Or was that Farrenhiet 451?
Do we all get a bar code tatooed on our wrist next? Many parents will be placed under needless suspicion , especially if they are law abiding gun owners, by the answers the childern give to the govt agent interigations. Prehaps the program should be renamed "Turn In Your Parents". I'll bet the BATF makes a list of gun owners for later Konfiscation.Suspect the govt of the worst and you will never be unpleasently suprised.
 
Ernerst2:

Re "bar codes tatooed on the wrist", in case you hadn't noticed, it's already there. It's otherwise known as your Social Security Number.

If you have any real question on this consider the following. I assume that you have a drivers license, possibly a U.S. Passport. Likely you had to furnish your SS# as part of the process for getting either one.

Should you find this objectionable, have you been in toiuch with any of your "elected things" lately??
 
Slabsides:

You might well be correct about "Profiling being BS". It's quite possible that "standard I.Q. tests" are too.

The fact remains that a bunch of baboons use them, while another bunch earn their lunch money from promulgating same. In short, a lot of "empires" have been built upon the foundations of these scams, and the folks who worship these particular "graven images" have POWER, which they often MISUSE.

I myself, had a somewhat "checkered" childhood, routinely carry a concealed weapon, and when I was a school child, a great many years ago, I scored quite highly on most of the "standardized" tests that I took.

There are no wants or warrants out on me either, I have yet to shoot anyone, and while the standard tests all claimed that I was near genius, though totally lacking in "technical ability", I did manage to become a half baked mechanical engineer, and earned my living as a designer/draftsman/field engineer, until I more or less retired.

Cannot say that the foregoing "proves" anything, but it strikes me as at least a little bit interesting. Of course, in the engineering business, 2 plus 2 made 4, and the world was not flat, notwithstanding such "theories" as might be fashionable, this afternoon.
 
alan, you are right ,of course. The magnetic strip on my Conn. Drivers license which has
two pictures of me on it as well as my social security number. My Conn. State Pistol Permit
also has two pictures of me , my social security number and a magnetic strip to pull up my computerized life history. Just last week , the National(nationwide) Federal ID
Card bill was defeated. It will be back again
in the next session of congress. We are all being regulated and legislated to the status of sheeple slaves and no body seems to mind in the least.We all go along to get along.
Our masters rule us almost completely.It feels like there is little we can do to change anything and I fear things will only get worst from here.I wonder if our rulers are not "from otherwheres" wearing human suits via "Men in Black". That sounds extreeme even to me, haha! But, I still wonder. More may be going on behind the scenes than any of us even think to suspect.
 
Ernest2 and anyone else interested:

The National Identity Card you mentioned lilkely will be back, and it can be defeated again, but only if people wake up and stay awake.

Ditto for any number of other "fairy tale", "Utopia" legislative proposals. The battle is endless and all that is needed for defeat, that is to say, "for evil to triumph", is "for good men to do nothing", as was observed years ago, by Supreme Court Justice Tom Clark, Ramsey Clark's father, as I recall.

I will now climb down from "my soapbox".
 
Alan: "It is not your duty to understand. It is my duty to make myself understood."

With that in mind, then, I'll try again: I submit that the pressures on our various leaders do indeed exist, that they somehow should provide us with a warm, fuzzy, swaddling-cloth world. Many years ago, I labelled this nonsense "Naderism"--the notion that if we just have enough laws and regulations, we will be safe from any harm of whatever sort.

This notion, these pressures, have given us labels on the top of stepladders, mandatory seatbelt laws, the Brady Bill, "dead-man" throttles on lawnmowers...This "profiling" notion is just another item in a long list...

As I said in my previous post, I am not surprised that an effort such as profiling is being touted as some sort of great and glorious help. Not being surprised does not mean either that I approve of it, or that I think it will do any good. Sorry, but I thought I had so indicated.

Looking over some of the other posts, let me say that profiling is a tool. A standardized IQ test is a tool. The problem is that some people "in the business" think these are *answers*. Obviously, I think, these people are incorrect. But I do believe these tools are useful. To stay with the tool analogy: Just because somebody misuses a screwdriver as a pry-bar or chisel does not mean that it is not useful at all. That some FBI person incorrectly alleged that profiling led to Bundy's discovery means nothing. After all, not all the personnel of any organization know everything the organization does or has done, much less how or why...

Similarly, a low IQ test score can indicate that the testee was too hungover to think clearly--or a very bright person has some degree of dyslexia...The score is merely a useful datum about a person, and cannot measure the probability of success in the usual meaning. There are members of Mensa who have been among the homeless, or who complain of the cost of drinks and a meal at a social gathering...

A last point: Do you think that many of those who vote for some protective-style of law--e.g., Brady--really believe it will accomplish anything useful? They many times vote for useless garbage in order to look good back home, to make points for re-election. Do you think the Schumers or Feinsteins really believe what they spout about gun control? Or Clinton? All these people strongly believe they absolutely must be perceived as being "in control" and able to "do something".

And I think you know how wrong they are.

Regards, Art
 
Has anybody tried running a magnet over the "strip"? Maybe the data is hard coded, so it would be useless, but it's a thought.

My nephew works for a big name airline. Says they got so many complaints from customers about "profiling" that the FAA has computerized the randomizing process. Now they can just shrug, "I dunno why you were selected, the computer did it."

Just looked at my Nevada driver's license -- no strip, and they allow you to use a randomized number instead of the SSN. The West is still the West in some aspects.

------------------
If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
Art, amomng other things, you wrote:

A last point: Do you think that many of those who vote for some protective-style of law--e.g., Brady--really believe it will accomplish anything useful? They many times
vote for useless garbage in order to look good back home, to make points for re-election. Do you think the Schumers or Feinsteins really believe what they spout
about gun control? Or Clinton? All these people strongly believe they absolutely must
be perceived as being "in control" and able to "do something".

Obviously, I do not believe the line they spout, though some people may have convinced themselves that the world is actually flat.

On tools, one should certainly not blame misuse of an impliment, on the impliment. That is the "gun control" school of thought. I note however, that some tools are potentially a lot more dangerous than are simple chisels, especially in the hands of those who have shown themselves to be somewhat "vicious" in nature.

I hope we are not talking at cross purposes, that is misunderstanding each other.
 
Re: Social security number and Passports

When I first got my passport about 12-14 yrs. ago SS#'s weren't such a big deal as they are now. I just didn't put one on my application form. I think it was optional then. Went through slick as a whistle.

When it came time to renew it had become much more "of a big deal". Just before renewal time I read a article that said to file or renew during the busy time, May to July I think, and just leave it off but expect some hassle from your USPS bureaucrat when you presented it for processing. Sure enough the bureaucrat said it wouldn't be OK'd. I said it was my money and time and to send it trough anyway. Slick as a whistle again. Good for 10 years this time I think.

Anybody had more recent experiences along these lines?
 
Hi allen, im back to take another look after recieving your email.Um --someone else was
talking about the batf misusing a screwdriver
as a crow bar or chistel. They would be more likely to misuse it as an assault screwdriver; much like a sword, to stick some one with it; good.As I said before the Mossiaic will allow them to increase their
grasp and power over us.Some have compaired batf to a us version of the nazi gistapo.
I am sure Waco survivors would agree with this point of view. Batf has embarased not only itself but other govt officials, who
want to sweep batf under the rug so that we can forget about them and waco.There is a govt recommendation to disband BATF and include batf"s functions into the FBI .
No doubt that all batf officials will then become FBI officials.Now --see-- there is no more BATF embarasement. BATF is shut down.
End of problem.HA--HA--HA --Fat Chance and NO WAY, Hosay!All BATF officials are promoted into the FBI , with a higher pay rase and more power and better color of law for their
continuing actions against you guess who.
The US government pulls the wool over the eyes of its law abiding citizens and tax payers yet again. I just cant stand it , where are my rose colored glasses? The glare
of abuse is just killing me, I hope not literally.If Americia is still the best country on earth(not) , where are the starships, its time to emmigrate! What no
starships? I guess I'll just have to protect
whats left of our second ammendment then!

[This message has been edited by ernest2 (edited November 16, 1999).]
 
RE: Art's post

Understanding does not mean agreement. Only a fool does not try to understand his enemy.
I repeat...understanding does not construe acceptance.

Art is an older guy...Art has experience...Art knows...capishe.

"Know your enemy"


On topic...this is an infamnia. This type stuff will ultimately lead to revolution....this is not American, this is not the America we grew up in and honor. We (as Americans) do not advocate the secret thought police. Be cool, just think about it. Don't show your cards.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top