This is my first post here... Need opinions/advice on Remington in .308

W

White Devil

Inactive
I already have a Savage Tactical in .308, but I think I want to get a Remington 700 in .308 as well. I LOVE my Savage (and for the money it's hard to beat), but the reputation of the Remington becons me to get one.

Can someone tell me why the Remington is any better than the Savage? I've heard that it's because of the trigger mostly. The way I see it, I'd have to get a smith to adjust the trigger anyway, so there would be no difference to me. What does the Remington usually cost?

As a personal side-note, I've been on AK-47.net for some time now. I love AK's, but this site seems to be a better "all-around" site. I also just got a RCBS Rock-Chucker kit, and I hope to start handloading for my Savage soon.

Thanks.
 
First, let me say welcome to TFL White Devil! :D

Remington VS Savage, for the record I think the Savages can be fine shooters, *BUT* I have found the trigger design doesn't lend itself to a consistent trigger pull. They frequently require readjustment.

The Savage stock is way too flimsy. Shooting off a bipod it works OK, but I shoot 99% of the time with a sling and with a tight, stable sling position I pull the flexible forearm into contact with the barrel, ruining the free float.

Remington's V (except for the VLS) and P series come with quality HS precision stocks with aluminium bedding blocks and a nice trigger design. All that is needed to really get a 700 V or P series squared away for me is to open up the barrel channel 1/8" all around with a dowel wrapped in sandpaper, and adjust the trigger to 3lbs, easily done by anyone reasonably competent.

After you have replaced the Savage stock and put a good trigger on it, you have spent more than the cost of a 700VS, so I prefer Remingtons.

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.
 
I had a Savage 110FP Police Sniper in .223. It was a great shooter with 1/4 MOA five shot groups at 100 yards with good hand loads and when I done my part. I had the trigger worked on it but after the work was done it would fire with the safety on. This would not have been acceptable if the gun hadn't been used purely for target punching and varmint control on the farm. I never loaded more than one round into the gun at a time and didn't close the bolt until I was ready to shoot something.

The absolute best "out of box" rifle I have ever held in my hands would be my latest purchase, a Remington 700 Light Tactical in .308. It has an HS Precision Tactical stock, 20" fluted barrel (Three wide grooves instead of the conventional type fluting) and the absolute best trigger that I have ever pulled on a stock rifle. The trigger on my rifle breaks at 4.98 pounds *CONSISTENTLY* with absolutely no creep. When it moves, it breaks like glass.

I can't say enough good things about this rifle. I've only shot one group through it so far. Out of the box with a good cleaning it put two shots through one .312" hole and I pulled the third one about 1/2 inch high and right. I'm convinced that the rifle would have made one ragged hole had I not had a muscle spasm in my left hand, which was under the back of the stock for elevation adjustment. I shot the group lying on the ground and shooting from a Harris Bipod.

If you can get your hands on a 700 LTR, I highly recommend getting it!!They go for about the same price as a PSS in most of the shops that have them. The kicker is, they need nothing but a scope and a good cleaning! No trigger adjustment necessary. I handled a few before buying one and they all had the same trigger.

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...
 
Count my vote for the Rem 700 LTR. My shooting buddies own two. Both are consistent 1/2 MOA or less shooters and have fine triggers (to my M1A trained finger, target rifle shooters will be more critical).

I just bought one, and first day out it turned in two groups of three shots, 1/8 and 3/16 inch at 100 yd. Two of the last three targets in a 30 round break-in session.

I AM NOT WORTHY!!

BTW I do not know if it remains reliable at long range. If anyone here has shot one beyond 400 yd I would be very interested in a report.

Bentley

“… words, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of every American. ... [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”
-Trenche Coxe in “Pennsylvania Gazette, 20 Feb 1778
 
The LTR isn't cataloged or listed on their site. I was told that they come through the Custom Shop to LE dealers but they are not restricted (by Remington) from civilian sales.

I talked to several dealers that had never heard of them while looking for one. You just have to luck up on an LE dealer with one in stock apparently.

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...
 
Go with the Remington 700PSS or LTR in .308. Heft them and shoulder them before you buy. Some people do not like the Wundheimer swell fatter grip of the PSS and LTR. If that is the case for you, get the 700VS (Varmint Synthetic) in .308. Same action, same barrel as the PSS (26"), but with a thinner grip area like a sporter and only one forward sling stud, but it has the full length aluminum bedding block and wide fore end.

I have heard debate as to whether the LTR or the PSS is the more accurate, and many give the nod to the LTR, but know of no definitive testing. I prefer a longer barrel so I have the PSS. Yes, the LTR is made in .308 and .223. I personally do not like the detachable magazine and deliberately sought out a hinged floorplate model.

When you get the gun home, remove the action from the stock and check to make sure there are no contact points on the barrel with the barrel channel in the stock. Mine was perfect and had none. If it does contact, lightly sand the contact area with a sandpaper wrapped dowel. A prior poster said give a 1/8 free float. I prefer much less to preclude foreign objects getting in the gap. Reassemble the action to the stock and torque to 65 INCH pounds -- INCHES not FEET. Clean the bore.

I also polished the follower to an almost mirror shine. Do not polish a gun part to a mirror shine as it will rust easier. That was why Springfield Armory M1903 National Match rifle bolts were not mirror polished.

Break in the barrel properly. I will not go into that here for the sake of brevity. Suffice to say mine is the easiest of my rifles to clean after proper break-in.

I initially used Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr Sierra MatchKing BTHP. I have switched to Black Hills 168 gr. Sierra BTHP in the red box. I think it is a bit more consistant and groups a hair smaller for me. Plus I am getting it for $14.00 per box including tax. I do not use military surplus.

I use Shooters Choice and JB Bore Paste for cleaning, with Dewey coated rods. It will shoot real world (me shooting ;)) .5-.75 inch groups at 100 yards. It will also throw a first shot from a sparkling clean. cold bore right into the center of the target. (I use black target pasters, dime sized for practice.) Subsequent shots will not deviate.

If using a heavy 50mm scope, use a steel scope base that incorporates a recoil shoulder like the Badger Ordnance, Autauga, Leupold Mk4, or LightForce mounts. They are pricey but very well made. I use Badger.

My scope is the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10X40LR M3 with mil-dots. I haven't really used it alot over 200 yards yet, but if the 1 MOA elevation for the M3 proves to be too coarse, I'll have Leupold put on an M1 elevation knob for $67. I used to have the Tasco SS10X42 on the rifle for 40% of the cost and loved it. I sold it to a friend for his Savage Tactical. He received a great deal on a used Savage with 20 rounds through it, including a Sharpshooter trigger and Millet 30mm Rings for $399. I installed the trigger for him, and it is very nice, but still prefer the Remington trigger. I paid $650 for my PSS. I have read that Remington is now requiring dealers to have a Police letterhead to order these police rifles, but some local dealers said they have not had that problem.

It also has a Harris bipod and Turner Saddlery leather national match sling. The Remington costs more initially, but you will eventually get one. Have fun. :D

Bill

[This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 27, 2000).]
 
Hi, "Devil",

"I've heard that it's because of the trigger mostly." You heard right.

"The way I see it, I'd have to get a smith to adjust the trigger anyway." The Remington triggers (pre lawsuit days) used to be fine out of the box; they can still be adjusted to a very precise pull. The Savage trigger design simply does not lend itself to much improvement no matter what is done.

Jim
 
700PSS Shooter-

Sounds like your rig is identical to my primary rifle, except I use a Brownell's Competitor sling instead of a Turner, never tried the Turner, is it a M1907 type?

I have found the M3 turrets work great, I've been able to shoot up to 600m at a friend's place in AZ and at 600m the POI was within 1.5" of POA. Theoretically the farthest your POI can be from your POA is 1/2 MOA, in actual testing out to 600m I find the POI is rarely more than 1/4 MOA off the POI. I'll trade that slight loss of precision to get the rapid and foolproof 100m - 1200m one turn zero! It's just the ticket for rapidly engaging multiple targets at differing ranges, no counting 1/4 min clicks and full rotations for me! :D

Oh, yeah about that 1/8" freefloat: I shoot in sandy areas frequently and have had grains of sand ruin my freefloat when the gap was close. I open it up to 1/8" all around to prevent this. I keep a 18" square camo rag, folded in half, slid all the way against the recoil lug on a stalk, when I get in a shooting position I slide the rag out to clear any debris, and place the rag under the muzzle, on the ground, to eliminate the dust signature when I fire.

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.

[This message has been edited by Rex Feral (edited May 27, 2000).]
 
I have the 700 VS in .308. What a nice rifle. If you don't feel like spending an extra 150-200 on a PSS, go with the VS, it is the same rifle, just a slightly different stock. I have adjusted my trigger myself and just finished adjusting it again tonight. It must be under 3#'s now. It is very nice and very crisp. Ground squirrels beware! I just need that Leupold 6x20 50mm LRT now so i can reach out and touch some vermin.
 
If you really want a great .308 I suggest you look at the Steyr Tactical. It make the Remington look like a Savage.
 
If the Steyr Tactical is as "good" as the SSG's I've shot, I'll be twice as happy with my Remington PSS.

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.

[This message has been edited by Rex Feral (edited May 28, 2000).]
 
Rex:

The Turner is a M1907 type. It is a premium piece of leather like the Brownells. I was going to get the Brownells, but local dealers carry the Turners. I try to give the locals the nod when possible (plus I can get the gimme and wants and grow impatient ;)). For a sporting rifle try the Brownells Latigo quick adjust. Absolutely great, especially once it gets broken in.

Re: the 1/8 inch free-float gap. That was the single best explanation why something is done I have ever read. I like the part about the cloth to clean it out. That is something I'll put in my shooting kit. I do not shoot in sand, so I never looked at it that way.

I came very close recently to buying a Steyr SBS Tactical with the short light barrel. Felt great and thought with a Leupold 2.5-8x36 Vari-X III it would make a great practical woods gun for hunting and target. I liked the trigger (incredibly crisp), the retracting bolt handle, and the ability to take a 10 round magazine (when available).

Unfortunely, both examples exhibited misaligned barrels in the barrel channel with 1/32 on one side and 1/8 on the other. In a $900 tactical rifle, that was not acceptable, plus I did not want to finish the factory's work. Removing, replacing, and re-torquing the action in the stock at the dealer's did not help. In fairness, Steyr had the dealer send back the unsold one for inspection.

That money, instead burned a hole in the pocket for a new Kimber Hunter Silhouette .22 with upgraded wood and factory bases. :D



[This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 28, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I personally do not like the detachable magazine and deliberately sought out a hinged floorplate model.[/quote]

Bill,

My LTR is a BDL with hinged floor plate. That's the second time I have seen a post saying that the LTR was avoided due to the DM. (For the record, you might have made both posts?) I'm not trying to be a prick, I'm just curious. Were all the LTR guns you looked at DM's instead of BDL's? I've seen/handled three and they all were BDL. I have yet to see a DM 700 LTR.

Again, I'm not trying to be a wise a$$, just curious. :)

As for scope mounts, I bought an Iron Brigade Armory one piece mount and I love it. It is one of the most solid, best engineered mounting systems I have ever seen. Also, I can't say enough good things about what a pleasure it was to do business with Norm Chandler at IBA. I highly recommend the mount and the people!! I can't wait to meet the Chandlers in November at Blackwater Lodge if I get to go to their LE only Sniper school. :)

Check them out at www.ironbrigadearmory.com

Now, I must go in search of an LTR in .223. :D

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...
 
Chris:

I concur with Iron Brigade Armory! That is who I bought my Badger rings and mounts, the Harris bipod, and lots of ammo. I see them at Richmond, Virginia gunshows at the Showplace. The Chandlers are very helpful and have a great product line.

When I bought my 700PSS over a year ago, it was difficult to find the hinged floorplate PSS model (BDL being I believe a designation for the deluxe sporting model like 700BDL DM). Only the 700P-DM were generally available.

Remington was going great guns with the 700P DM box mag model. The LTRs, being new, were all coming as the DM models. When I called Remington LE sales, they said the majority of PSS and LTR would be DM models.

I have since heard many variations on the net about why they are moving away from the DM. Some say they pop out under recoil. I doubt this as many shooters in my club have 700 BDL DM sporting guns with rounds heavier than .308 and never had a popout. A friend with a PSS in .300 WinMag never has popouts. I believe popouts are caused by OE -- "operater error" in failing to properly pop-in or seat the magazine. The DM concept is sound for an LE tactical rifle, i.e., rapid changes of ammo for special purposes. Possibly it is an accuracy issue due to rigidity. I was going to call Remington, but never got around to it.

I personally wanted the floorplate model with an eye on future flexibility in having Iron Brigade add their steel floorplate, or finding that elusive Remington Custom Shop SA steel BDL floorplate. I also prefer the cleaner lines of the PSS and BDL non-DM models. I could live without the engraving on new BDL receivers, too. ;)

By the way, the .223 LTR is not as light. The tiny .223 bore means more steel, but the piece I saw this weekend was pretty appealing. (This is why in muzzleloaders, I prefer .54 caliber. I also found a S&W 617 in 6" is WAYYYY heavier than a 6" 686! .22 vs .357 -- bigger lightening holes.)

With the reduced case capacity of the .223, this may be the perfect .223 tactical rifle or varmint gun, especially since Remington only uses the 1-10 twist for .223 in the Police series allowing the heavier bullets. :D
 
I thought "BDL" was Remington's designation for the hinged floor plate option. Is this not correct? Now I'm confused.

With the additional weight mentioned above and the lighter recoil of the .223 caliber the .223 LTR should really be a schweeeeeet shooter!! You should be able to watch bullet impact through the scope. :D

I guess an SKB Custom Double Rifle case with an LTR in each caliber stashed in a Crown Vic trunk vault would make for quite a tactical sharpshooter combo, huh? ;) Man, I'm gonna be broke *AGAIN* very soon!! :D

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...
 
re: BDL. You may be correct. I have owned Remingtons for over 25 years and the ADL was low end, no floorplate, blind magazine, BDL was upgrade with spacers, fore end cap and floorplate.

There are/were BDL version of pump 760's and auto 740's as well as the pump and auto .22s in the past. I still think it is a trim level.

How about ADL='almost deluxe', BDL='beyond deluxe'. Just kidding. ;)
 
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