third option to AR/AK debate?

S

Smiley

New member
I have heard all the disussions about the benefits of the AR over the Ak and vice versa. I am looking for a third option. I own a bushy AR and I love it, however it does hiccup every once in a while and that bugs me since I bought it for two reason. 1) range time 2) shtf stuff.
Now I beleive that if I had to the AR would serve me well should any one of those nasty scenarios of shtf or other bad stuff. But i am thinking about something that would be a knock down rugged really really really dependble gun that i dont worry about if it got dirty or dinged. I was looking at the M1a and maybe the G3 type rifles. .308 seems to be a good round. unfotunatley one of the criteria would be look. In CT they are fairly PC around here and some people even get harassed at the range by the local PD about what they have and why. It will not be a deal breaker but it will be a huge consideration. This is why I am kind of shying away from the AK. I can usually pass teh AR off as a competition target shooter, but around here the Ak is nothing but an evil Assault rifle to everyone. Are there any suggestions? 7.62 and .308 are the prefered rounds. and cheaper or around the same price as teh AR would be good. high cap is good to along with availability of mags. Any takers?

heck I might even consider some kind of lever action or semi-auto tube magazien rifle/carbine.

The main criteria is total out and out relibility.
 
For absolute reliability go with an AK. If you want a powerful, accurate PC AK then check out the VEPR or the Super VEPR at http://www.robarm.com

It uses a heavy RPK action, is chambered for the 308 and is reported to give very good accuracy. The Super VEPR uses a full length, 1 piece stock and at best, only resembles an AK in appearance. Only 10 rnd magazines are available for it but I keep hearing rumblings about people working on FAL magazine conversions.

Just my .02
 
Get a FAL. If I couldn't grab my M4gery in a SHTF scenario, my second choice would be my FAL. Mags are dirt cheap, spare parts and accessories are cheap.
 
RikWriter and I can agree with this one. Get the FAL.

BTW, my namechange isn't looking good.

Name change just happened.

[Edited by Steve Smith on 11-21-2000 at 02:44 PM]
 
The FAL is your best bet.

The nice thing about full size battle rifles like the FAL is they have a distinct visual presence.

In the US the M4/M16 is a better choice for SHTF, ammo, weight, etc. But in a lesser situation, (LA riots?) there is presence suggested by a big gun (if you a Korean shopkeeper) that is hard to beat with smaller more useful rifles. :)

As far a other guns, I have a 16" Rossi Lever action in 44 Magnum, this is a nice little gun that never gets a second look, but is good out to 100 Metres. It's a good gun to 'investgate' with. Noises around the house or other buildings around the property. If it's all innocent or you bump into a neighbour/police you don't appear armed for war.
 
I've had a HK91 for 12 yrs. It's never failed me. I shoot it in action type steel matches, hunted with it too. I picked up a bunch of Thermolds for it when they were around $12 and I don't even use the steel or Al. mags I have.

For me, it's better than the AR or the AK and it doesn't have a gas system like the FAL. Loves all NATO ball ammo.
 
"Yet another vote for the FAL. Whats not to love?"

Actually, several things. First, it is overly heavy. Second, it is overly long. Third, the receiver is too long, putting the handguard too far away, making it awkward to shoot off-hand, unless your arms are a lot longer than mine (and I'm 5' 9", not a gorilla, but not a shrimp either). Fourth, the push in and rotate back mag locking system (shared with M1A and AK) is more fumble prone than the AR15s slap-it-straight-in method. Fifth, the sights are not great. Sixth, the trigger sucks. Seventh, if the adjustable gas port is not set to eject the round forcefully enough, you can get the spent cartridge case jammed between the dust cover and the bolt.

Yes, the FAL is a fine rifle. It is reliable and reasonably accurate. But all guns have warts and the FAL is no exception. Personally, I find the M1A balances much better for me. YMMV.

M1911
 
M1911, I think I'll disagree wtih you on a lot of stuff here:


"Yet another vote for the FAL. Whats not to love?"

Actually, several things. First, it is overly heavy.

I totally disagree. A 10 lb rifle is not a problem, at least to me...we cart 10+ lb rifles around all the time hunting year round. Most hunts we'll walk 10+ miles a day. Sure, carrying a rifle that heavy for hunting can be a drag, but it's possible, and if you're in it for more than extracirricular reasons, the weight will be less anyway.

Second, it is overly long.

I disagree here too. It's only too long if you're inside buildings. In open country, the length is nice.

Third, the receiver is too long, putting the handguard too far away, making it awkward to shoot off-hand, unless your arms are a lot longer than mine (and I'm 5' 9", not a gorilla, but not a shrimp either).

I'm 5'7" and I have no problems.

Fourth, the push in and rotate back mag locking system (shared with M1A and AK) is more fumble prone than the AR15s slap-it-straight-in method.

I agree with you here.

Fifth, the sights are not great.

The sights are bult for combat.

Sixth, the trigger sucks.

Agreed, but this can be overcome with proper trigger work....I'm doing this now with mine.

Seventh, if the adjustable gas port is not set to eject the round forcefully enough, you can get the spent cartridge case jammed between the dust cover and the bolt.

This iss true, but the gas system is for the shooter's benefit. If you had to depend on the rifle to defend your life, you'd set the system to use more gas in operation than if you were target shooting. That would ensure function. After that, you can continue to add power to the cycle stroke to overcome dirt and fouling.
 
M1911 - one thing I wouldn't claim as a plus for the M16 is the magazines. They're way too flimsy for a combat weapon IMHO. The magazine lips (including the lip for the magazine release) are easily distorted, resulting in FTFs. How many times have you thought you slapped one of those puppies in there only to find out it's not properly seated? And how many times have you had to perform Leatherman surgery on a magazine to get it to work right? Maybe this is only a problem with the crappy thousand-year old M16A2s and magazines I always seem to get issued, but we're talking a choice for a SHTF scenario, right? So you must assume Mr. Murphy and his bad-luck gremlins are hanging out in your rucksack.

The AK system lock-and-rock system for inserting the magazine just requires some practice. But those magazines are tough.
 
That's weird that the M16's mags are often criticized. Out of the dozen or so mags I have for my CAR-15, only one is new with the others being well used GI, I've never had a problem with them. The 3 Sanchez mags I own don't drop free from the magwell, but function perfectly.

You could get a "Congo" carbine FAL and get a pretty good blend for all situations. You'll also get increased blast and a bit more recoil, but what's that between friends?

The FAL isn't perfect, but I believe it's the best 7.62x51 battle rifle out there. My buddy likes to blast off 20 rounds as fast as he can pull the trigger and he can usually keep in a 6'x6' square at 200yds from the bipod.
 
Here is my list:
1. DSA SA58 Carbine.
2. HK91
3. Imbel L1A1
4. M96 Expeditionary Rifle
5. Springfield M1A1
6. Vepr AK Variants (any)
7. M1 Carbine
8. Remington 700
9. Marlin 1894
10. Enfield #5 Mk 1 Jungle Carbine

There are other rifles... good choices as well. Like the Winchester Model 70, Mauser etc... But these are my personal and biased choices. AR15 type rifles need not apply.
 
George, I will soon have a FAL, my brother wanted one so I am going to part together two of them (long story but he is at the south pole so I am doing it for him). I have always prefered the M1A over the FAL but since I have some ideas as to how your mind works I want to hear your reasons for placind the FAL at the head of your list.
 
Simplicity of operation, striping, cleaning.
Its also a bit lighter than the M14 type... Wood can also swell when wet.
Accuracy is about the same if you dont have a real cheap FAL.
Also - Browning (I'm biased here) designed the action that was used in the FAL design.

I'm looking for a Stainless DSA FAL carbine... The stainless recievers are no longer made. Dang it.
 
If a pistol grip is a big part of your concern, the Bulgarian SLR-95 is touted as one of the finest post-ban AK's, but has a more PC stock ... http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/slr95.html

I'm not sure how an FAL would be perceived as less menacing, but I know there is no explaining some emotions on this issue.

Best wishes, and Happy Thanksgiving. Regards from AZ
 
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