There's open carry and then there's wide open carry...

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kodiakbeer

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Interesting story. Woman hassled for "open carry" in a situation that had never occurred to me.

http://newsminer.com/bookmark/7397764-Woman-files-complaint-against-Alaska-State-Troopers-response-to-her-carrying-a-legal-handgun

FAIRBANKS — A former Fairbanks police officer has filed a complaint against two Alaska State Troopers, saying they badly overreacted to her decision to legally carry an unholstered handgun while taking a walk last week.

Beth Allard said she was carrying a snub-nosed .38-special revolver while walking near her mother’s home off Farmers Loop on Thursday evening when she was contacted by two Alaska State Troopers.

Allard sent an e-mail with her version of the incident to local media on Monday and accused the troopers, Benjamin Enders and Dru Neason, of treating her in a demeaning and intimidating manner. She said they owe her a face-to-face apology and should receive a written reprimand.

“I couldn’t believe that’s the kind of judgment they’d use on a call like this,” she said.

Allard, who works as a process server, was a Fairbanks Police Department officer from 1980-82. She also is a certified firearms instructor and the daughter of Joe Nava, a prominent local gun safety and gun rights advocate. Nava has a weekly program, “Shooter’s Corner,” on KFAR radio.

Allard said none of that came up during the stop last Thursday.

“I never told them my background, because it shouldn’t matter,” she said.

Allard said she was taking a walk while carrying a handgun for protection. Without a fanny pack or holster to store the revolver in, she chose to carry it in her hand instead. Allard said she kept the small pistol, which is roughly the size of a water bottle, pointed down with her finger away from the trigger, a method she frequently uses while jogging.

She said Enders and Neason approached her with guns drawn as she walked on a dirt road off Auburn Drive. She was upset that the contact stretched on for about 20 minutes and, she said, included an angry exchange with accusations of her acting recklessly and carrying the weapon in an unsafe manner.

Allard was not arrested and said the troopers were correct in making the initial contact, but she believes she should have been released promptly because she was not violating any law. Allard said she has been carrying the small pistol that way for the past 15 years and had never previously been contacted by authorities.

In a statement, troopers apologized for any inconvenience to Allard and expressed regret that she felt the contact with troopers was inappropriate. The statement defended the stop, however, saying it was “reasonable” for troopers to demand that Allard secure the firearm while walking in a public area near a school.

Troopers spokeswoman Megan Peters agreed that Allard was not breaking any law by carrying the unholstered weapon, but she said a trooper response to such a situation is almost guaranteed.

Peters said a citizen report of a woman walking with a gun in her hand on Baylor Boulevard led to the initial contact by troopers. Pearl Creek Elementary School is located on adjoining Auburn Drive, which Peters said made the response even more urgent. Allard said she was more than a mile from the school when the contact was made.

“We’re trying to avoid any type of huge incident that ended badly,” Peters said.

Peters said the incident ended when Allard agreed to put the handgun in a small jacket pocket. Allard was hesitant to take that step, saying the tiny slit was too small to actually hold the revolver.

Peters declined to say whether either trooper involved in the incident faces any discipline, citing personnel confidentiality policies. The AST statement, however, asserts that “the responding troopers acted in the best interest of public safety.”

 
Wow. Two levels of stupid, colliding.

The woman is just dumb for carrying a gun openly in hand. While maybe not illegal, it certainly is rude in my opinion. Drawn guns escalate tensions.

And the officers should have stopped the car about 100 yards ahead of her with lights on rather than what seems like they rushed up close on her with guns drawn. Any sensible person would put 2 + 2 together and realize THEY were the reason for the police intervention, I would hope. A sensible person would put their DRAWN gun on the ground and then discuss the situation with the police.

The lesser stupid award goes to the police for choosing force escalation over other communication methods for what was probably pretty obvious as a hiker/walker with a revolver for protection.

The greater stupid award goes to the woman for not using a gorram holster. Even if it's holstered and carried in your opposite hand, since your spandex is too tight and you don't want to wear a fanny pack.

Most states call her act "brandishing."
 
That's an interesting story,,,

If I was a LEO and saw someone walking with a handgun in their hand I would certainly stop them,,,
I think I would initially consider it an act of brandishing a weapon in public,,,
At the very least I would approach and interview the person.

Gun drawn?,,, maybe not,,, But maybe yes as well.

The one state I lived in that had open carry was very specific about that,,,
If it's in a holster it is being legally openly carried,,,
If it's in your hand it's being brandished,,,
Maybe legally, maybe illegally,,,
But it's still brandishing.

I'm as avid a proponent of open carry as can be,,,
But I would have a serious chat with any LEO who did not approach a person near a school with gun in hand.

If I were a jogger in Alaska (where wild critters occasionally eat people) I might want to carry in that most ready condition. But should a LEO approach me I believe I would use Dalton's advice and "just be polite".

I'm not judging here but from what I can glean from the written words,,,
I believe she was displaying a bit of ChipOnShoulderItus,,,
She got bent out of shape because two LEOs came to ask why she was carrying a
gun in her hand.

Come on lady, this was not an unreasonable thing for a LEO to do,,,
Maybe not with guns drawn but then again,,,
Why do they have to take a big risk?

She was upset that the contact stretched on for about 20 minutes and, she said, included an angry exchange with accusations of her acting recklessly and carrying the weapon in an unsafe manner.

Yep, LEOs have a tendency to lecture,,,
Especially when the threat they perceived was false,,,
They are embarrassed that they mistook a situation for more than it was.

I know from lots of years as a CSO and a wife who was a Dispatcher,,,
Cops in general do not know how to politely apologize,,,
In many cases they are trained to not apologize,,,
It shows weakness, so they lecture instead.

Bad situation all around,,,
But I sense there was arrogance on both sides.

JMHO,,,
Yours can vary considerable and it's okay by me.
 
When we hunt we carry in hand to be ready for the shot. I sure would be wary of any one with a gun in hand, the troopers did ok IMHO.
 
If you read the article, she doesn't have an issue with being contacted by the police. Her complaint is being detained for 20 minutes and being berated for being reckless and "unsafe". She has a point - it isn't reckless or unsafe to carry a revolver when your finger is not on the trigger, so once they determined she wasn't breaking the law she should have been immediately released to go on her way.

Under Alaska law, brandishing can only be applied when there is an implied threat to some second party - not the case here.

The underlying issue is that her father heads a gun rights group, so they're going to make a complaint of any police misbehavior, even if relatively minor.
 
If she tried that in my neighborhood she wouldn't be alive to complain about it. Common sense really isn't common anymore.
 
NYPD13: If she tried that in my neighborhood she wouldn't be alive to complain about it. Common sense really isn't common anymore.

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course, in NY it wouldn't be legal, but are you suggesting that cops should shoot people for legal carry in other areas?

For some of you others - I actually posted the article because I realized that if I just posted the link, many wouldn't read it. Yet, apparently, even with the article in the OP, many haven't bothered to read it.

The complaint here is not about being contacted by the officers - the woman with the gun says that was appropriate. The complaint and issue revolves around her detention and the insulting behavior by the police.

I'm kind of on the fence about this one. This was a .38 snubby in a city, so it wasn't being carried for bear protection - the troopers adrenaline levels had to be on high alert when contacting this woman. Yet, they did detain her long past her ID was run and they saw she wasn't a felon, they did lie about it being near a school to justify the behavior - the school was a mile away.

Yet, jogging with revolver in hand...? I guess I have to go along with azredhawk - some stupid on both sides here.
 
"open carry" & common sense-good judgement...

This event is a great example of how & why some people use different thinking methods or can use reasons to justify or validate their statements/actions.
The fact that the female jogger was a sworn LEO(allthough 2 years is very brief & I'm sure there's a story there, ;)) and had a background in firearms/2A issues should mean that she would use more sense, IMO.
She may have been upset or felt unfairly treated by the AK troopers but I could also see how & why the cops would react that way too.
Alaska is a large vast area. AK state troopers & other sworn LE officers must deal with subjects in remote areas or in places where back-up/support may be limited. Alcohol & drugs(meth) are major issues too in AK. God only knows what some AK LE officers face in a normal work week compared to other parts of the US. The state troopers should be professional & act in a mature way but in fairness, the female jogger could have found a decent carry rig for a J frame revolver. Her dispute is somewhat limited considering the conditions.
As a hotel security offcer, I saw many guests do things that made 0 sense or had no valid reason. Guests would allow their small kids to roam around the property, unescorted to use the vending machines or get change from the front office at 100am/200am! Other hotel guests would leave small children alone in the room and then leave the hotel property!
When I would ask a adult or parent why they'd do it, they would get angry or indiginent and start to argue or complain about me. That just shows the mindset good or bad that some people have.
In 1990, I bought a LE only textbook about officer safety/survival when I was an MP in the military. The book gave an example of a police officer who thought they could clean a service revolver in a washing machine! The book even had documented photos. Most people would call that act stupid or crazy but the LEO did it.

CF
 
My understanding is that the complainant is upset after being accused of acting recklessly with a firearm. She needs to get over it because she was. As the article reads she was walking down the street not far from the elementary school with her loaded pistol in hand prompting calls to the police. She could have kept it openly holstered on her hip and avoided the horrendous 20 minute interruption of her walk. A holster would also provide a level of safety from accidental discharges in the event of her falling during her jogging sessions. As the daughter of the areas gun safety and rights advocate I shamefully see her as another example of a gun owner taking it a step to far and giving us responsible gun owners a bad name.
I also didn't mean to suggest she should have been shot by authorities, only that she could have been by anyone who was fearful and unsure of her intentions, especially if her neighbors are as reckless as her. A little common sense helps prevent tragedies.
 
Touchy situation. Very harsh NYPD13.

I get the sense that what happened was that the two cops were perceived to be disrespecting thier elder and a lady to boot and the lady was arguably rightfully offended. She had been doing this for 15 years it said. (I'm not trying to necessarily defend her but to understand where she is coming from.)

Let's sterotype for a moment for fun eh? Mr president, there's a white elderly woman a mile from a school, do we take the shot?

Oh my God. Now why in the world would an older White lady be carrying a gun? Anyone...anyone? Bueller? :)

Has there been a surge in elderly white woman violence? Of course not. This is a case of young cops too dumb to think on thier feet. This is a case of proud rightious indignation meets stupid authority. I see why it was a good idea to initially check her out, one never knows. WHy didn't they let her go? They some of the cops taught that go by the book no matter what? Is that where we're at now?

I was taught that a job is a job but one does not disrespect ladies or thier elders. She should have smacked the pee out of them dumb bucks zsa zsa style. They owe her an apology.

Sorry guys, cops lose this one. Thier elder and a lady? Her background is icing on the cake. This older lady runneth over with justification :)

OK NYPD good retraction/clarification!
 
She needs to get over it because she was. As the article reads she was walking down the street not far from the elementary school with her loaded pistol in hand prompting calls to the police.

I guess I shouldn't have bothered posting the article at all. The police were lying about her being near a school (it was a mile away) and there is no mention of anyone calling the police.
 
That's how they cover themselves. We were protecting the children...:barf:

You guys remember that White woman who went off and killed all those kids in the school awhile back? Me neither.
 
Although the detention was excessive, she could have avoided the whole situation by using a holster.

All I could think of while reading the article was Bride of Leonard Embody.
 
I'm surprised it was legal. most places would consider that brandishing. she really needs to get a fanny pack considering AK doesn't require a permit to carry a concealed handgun.
 
The police were lying about her being near a school (it was a mile away) and there is no mention of anyone calling the police./QUOTE]
The original article states a citizen reported a woman walking with a gun in her hand on a road which intersects that which the school is on which made the response more urgent as that act is illegal under Alaska law. The article doesn't give the location of the stop, only the complainant claims she was a mile away. Also "elders" should be wiser, however age was never mentioned in the Daily News-Miner article. I don't see an abuse of authority here as no action was taken beyond the inquiry stop which she felt took too long. I did see a lack of common sense and gun safety. It also doesn't mention if she holds a ccw permit however if she doesn't then it was great on the Troopers part for insisting and allowing her to continue on her way with it concealed in her jacket pocket.
 
Tom Servo said:
Although the detention was excessive, she could have avoided the whole situation by using a holster.

Why? Would that have made her MORE legal? Are there different degrees of legal behavior now? Well, we can detain you for this here legal behavior, but not that there legal behavior? I am not saying what she was doing was smart, and I personally wouldn't do it, but it was still legal behavior nonetheless. It kinda bugs me when people say that in order to avoid hassles with the police we should not engage in a certain activity that is legal to engage in.

bigghoss said:
most places would consider that brandishing.

I am glad Washington doesn't.
 
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