There's no sweeter sound...

R

Rainbow Six

New member
...than the low hum of that dang UPS truck!! :D

My Leupold Tactical 3.5-10X 40MM Mil-Dot scope for my 700 LTR came in today. Now the break-in procedure starts...Friday. That's when I'm off work again. Man, I wish that sweet UPS truck hum would've filled my ears yesterday so I could have spent today getting started with the break-in.

I can't wait to make this rifle go BOOM!! :D

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Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
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R6...aka...Chris
 
M-1 style target turrets and 1/4 minute adjustments. I wish it had target knobs instead of the screw on caps over the turrets though. I think they are available from Leupold though, right? I also want a good sunshade.

I am going to buy Butler Creek flip up caps for both ends tomorrow. You'd think that a scope costing as much at a Leupold would at least include some cheap plastic covers. :o

Very clear, very bright scope though. Nice!! :D

Now I have to learn to use the Mil-Dot reticle properly. Any good resources?

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***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
Speaking of sunshades, I looked at a scoped rifle somewhere with a sunshade installed. The shade had a honeycomb like material inside to help reduce side glare. I liked this idea. Seems like unless you point it almost directly at the sun you shouldn't have any glare/flare problems. Anyone know who makes that type shade? I can't remember where I saw it.

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***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
Leupold makes an ARD insert that fits inside the Butler Creek caps, try:

www.sniper-store.com

As for learning the mil-dot, if you get yourself a mil-dot master from:

www.swfa.com

it will be very helpful, you wont have to bother with the troublesome inch-yard or inch-meter conversion before you can even start working the formula.

If you dont know how to range with mil-dots it works like this:

target size in yards or meters x 1000 / # of mils = range in yards or meters.

You should be able to find all the information you need about using mil-dots from:

www.snipercountry.com

The hardest part about using mil-dots is breaking them down into accurate fractions of a mil, only practice will help here!

Good Luck!



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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.
 
Butler Creek makes those 'honeycomb' lens cover. I've always thought that they would reduce the amount of light coming into the objective cutting down the scope's brightness. I like sun shades better.

- Ron V.
 
I think Butler Creek's ARD is discontinued.

I use the Leupold ARD and in does reduce the light transmission a bit, but since it is only used when there is enough sunshine to cause reflection it is a moot point.

I dislike sunshades, they create a "black-hole" effect that'll get you busted on a stalk, a trained observer will spot this readily.

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.
 
I think I decided to skip the mil-dots when I finally buy my Leupold long range target 6x20 50mm. I think I will save my money and buy a range finder instead. It is too much hassle to have to zoom up to 20x on those leupolds just in order to get the mil-dots the right size and then if I don't want to shoot at that power because of mirage or whatever.. you get my drift?
 
El Rojo-

Whenever possible I use my laser rangefinder, but I have had it go south on me in 25 degree temperatures, and needed the mil-dot. Dark non-reflective targets can be a problem as well, my rangefinder has read up to 1200m+ in perfect conditions on highly reflective targets, but failed to read targets as close as 200m on bright days.

When you are first learning mil-dots and eyeball estimation LRF's are great to confirm your estimation, but I couldn't rely on one totally.

I used to use a standard duplex reticle as a rangefinder before I learned mil-dots, if you are going to skip the mil-dots, El Rojo, you might want to use this system as a backup WHEN your LRF fails:

Draw a 7.2" (7 1/4" is close enough) square on a piece of cardboard and set it at exactly 100yd or 100m (wichever unit of measure you'll be using).

From a stable rest, with your scope set on the lowest power look at the square.

Now zoom in 'till the square just touches the heavy posts of the duplex on all sides.

Mark this setting on your power adjustment ring, and the scope body, so you can reliably return to the proper setting.

At the proper setting you will have 1 mil from the tip of the heavy post to the center of the crosshair, 2 mils from heavy post to heavy post.



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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.
 
About mil-dots. There are different versions of the mil-dot reticle out there and getting a real answer can be confounding. My understanding is that a milliradian is 1/6400 of a circle, and that the distance between mil-dots (center to center) is 3.6 inches at 100 yds. But some may vary. To check for certain - draw (2) 1/8 wide dark black parallel lines 3.6" apart on a white sheet of paper at 100 yds and see how it looks through the scope. If the center to center distance between dots is not exactly 3.6 at 100 yds thats ok, but find out what it is and modify range formulas accordingly.
 
All the mil-dots I have used have checked out as standard mil spacing center to center, some are football shaped (USMC) and some are round (USAR), but all are standard size.

There was some question about the Tasco SS series of mil dots, but they are standard mils as well, despite what the info on the Tasco website says! I use one of these on a back-up rifle and have confirmed standard mil spacing.

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Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.
 
Rainbow have fun!!! Good choice. You will be very pleased! The Remington 700 LE models are real accurate. My stock PSS is a 1/2 to 3/4 MOA shooter with Black Hills 168 gr. HPBT Sierra MatchKings. I can't wait to try relaoding for this gun.

I assume since your scope has turret caps it is the one inch tube. All the 30mm Long Range (LR) M1 and M3 versions I looked at did not have turret caps or the capability to accept them.

I have a Vari-X III 3.5-10x40LR M3 with 1 MOA elevation knob. I wanted the bullet drop feature. Some said 1 MOA was too coarse. I figured if it turned out to be too coarse, I would have Leupold put an M1 1/4 MOA elevation turret on for $67. 1/2 MOA is fine for windage and gives a slimmer width to the gun.

The Leupold ARD (made by Tenaebrax as the Killflash) is for the one inch tube 40mm non-adjustable objective model NOT the 30mm LR model and says so on the package. The place I ordered it did not notice that and I found that out the hard way. On the 30mm scope it will fit only if using butler creek caps to keep in on. It fits great on the others. Midway has them for $15 or $16, but they are not shown in the catalog.
 
Yes, my scope has a 1" tube. I didn't need the LR features. According to a couple of the local snipers, based on past case history it starts getting tough to "justify in court" an LE sniper shot past about 150 yards. That and the fact that the area would rarely ever require a shot past that distance I feel that spending my hard earned $$$$$$$$ on LR based options would be a waste and simply more to tear up or think about. I like the simplicity of my 3.5-10X 40MM Mil-Dot. :)

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***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
That doesn't make any sense to me. Snipers are pretty much by definition shooting at someone that is not a direct threat to them, but in the case of LEO, a threat to someone else. Thus I don't see how the distance would ever be a factor -- you're always shooting to protect someone else, right? Or does it become an issue that a shot from farther ranges tends to get more dangerous for those around the target?
 
Rainbow is correct. Miss a shot in battle at 500 yards, it may get hot for you and your spotter or get you killed. Miss a LE hostage situation shot at 150 when you could have gotten closer will get a hostage killed, and at the least a departmental inquiry or more likely a lawsuit. Most LE shots are well under 100 yards. The rationale for the non-LR is very sound. I hope to do some long distance shooting at targets and whistle-pigs or grundsows (groundhogs to non-PA types). ;)
 
Zach,

My discussion with LE snipers on this topic was very brief, therefore I can't fully explain the legal ramifications of a long range LE shot. However, the basic information that I got from the local snipers is as follows:

#1- The sniper will likely be grilled in civil, and possibly criminal court for his shot just like a patrol officer would for plugging someone on a traffic stop gone bad. Questions like, "How do you explain the fact that the perp was found dead *AND* unarmed after your perfectly placed 250 yard head shot?" will make you an inmate of the state instead of the hero you might have been had he been armed. Is that really a weapon that you see in the hand of the perp located 300+ yards away through your 10X scope in less than ideal lighting?

#2- Hostile Target I.D. is absolutely necessary to save your tater in the above mentioned court proceedings. You *HAVE* to be able to articulate the fact that the BG posed a threat to you or someone you have the right to protect. Although the LE sniper and his rifle might be able to perfectly place a head shot from 300 yards, he may not be able to convince a jury that he could see well enough to articulate a threat to himself or others.

#3- Collateral damage. Let's say that you not only miss your mark on the BG, leaving him capable of inflicting harm to the hostage as mentioned above, but you actually hit the hostage. Hey, it's a high stress shot against a human target that may require shooting from an uncomfortable shooting position while experiencing physical/mental fatigue and eye stress from gathering intelligence and obtaining proper target I.D. through a rifle scope for a long period of time.

The pressure of this kind of shooting isn't like making a 300 yard paper target shot from a nice comfortable benchrest. A miss, or even worse, an "innocent" hit can cost you for the rest of your life. Imagine you are at the rifle range and your paper target is partially obscured by the Range Officer's head. You have to hit the 3" of exposed bullseye without as much as nicking the RO. How much stress would that add to your target session? The LE sniper that hits the innocent would experience as much, if not more grief than you would if you hit the RO at the range.

LE snipers don't have license to kill with immunity. Quite the contrary, they must be able to articulate that they were justified in using deadly force to defend the life of themselves or innocents that they have a right to protect. The tactical commander might give the green light for a shot but guess who's tater gets cooked if you make an unjustifiable shot based only on his command?

Bear in mind that we're not saying that long shots are not made or justified in certain LE scenarios. The point is, they *have to be justified and articulated* and that can get tough when involving long distance shots.

I hope this kind of clears things up for you. :)



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***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris

[This message has been edited by Rainbow Six (edited May 20, 2000).]
 
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