Jeff White
New member
RANT MODE ON:
In the past few days we've had some threads going on here blasting the lack of effectiveness of various weapons, techniques and ammunition. What's got me upseet is that there are several people who should know better jumping in with their two cents. (which is the fun of online forums) But guys and gals, lets get back to reality. Over in Art of the Rifle, the usual 5.56mm is an ineffective cartridge debate is going in a couple threads. Here we have people ready to ban the use of OC because it's ineffective.
To this let me say that phasers you can set to kill or stun don't yet exist. Until they do we have to accept the fact that no fighting technique, no method of intermediate force be it OC, CS, CN or Taser, is 100% effective against 100% of the population, 100% of the time!!!
Belive it or not, we got into the very same 5.56mm vs .30 caliber debate on The Infantry Leaders Forum on the official Infantry School and Ft Benning site. A CPT who works in the Combined Arms Tactics Division at the schoolhouse summed it all up nicely; "Why is it when an American soldier survives multiple hits from an enemy's weapon and goes on to take out the machine gun position with a frag grenade, we give him the MOH; but let an enemy soldier have the nerve and bad manners not to fall over dead immediately after one hit from an M4 or M16, we've got a problem with our weapons?"
As for OC, when I first certified with it back in about 93 or 94, they told us it wouldn't be effective against everyone. I've learned pressure point control techniques that would have some people on their knees begging for mercy, are totally ineffective on others.
If you look hard enough, you can find documentation of people continuing to function after receiveing hits from about any firearm you care to name. All lesser means of force depend on pain to gain compliance. Everyone has a different threshold of pain.
I just think it's more productive to talk about how to stay in the fight and win then it is to bemoan the defensive tools used. Instead of "on page such and such of Black Hawk Down, SFC Howe had to shoot the bad guy a couple times before he went down" meaning the M4 and M855 is useless in combat; what's wrong with "we need to educate or soldiers on the grim realities of combat?
Instead of indicting OC spray and making it the culprit in the murder of Deputy Herzog; why aren't we blaming the real culprit, the budgetary decisions that left him out there alone to deal with an EDP?
Boys and girls, I don't think we're learning the right lesson from these things. In fact, we're getting like the antis, we're blaming the tools for bad things that happen.
RANT MODE OFF
Jeff
In the past few days we've had some threads going on here blasting the lack of effectiveness of various weapons, techniques and ammunition. What's got me upseet is that there are several people who should know better jumping in with their two cents. (which is the fun of online forums) But guys and gals, lets get back to reality. Over in Art of the Rifle, the usual 5.56mm is an ineffective cartridge debate is going in a couple threads. Here we have people ready to ban the use of OC because it's ineffective.
To this let me say that phasers you can set to kill or stun don't yet exist. Until they do we have to accept the fact that no fighting technique, no method of intermediate force be it OC, CS, CN or Taser, is 100% effective against 100% of the population, 100% of the time!!!
Belive it or not, we got into the very same 5.56mm vs .30 caliber debate on The Infantry Leaders Forum on the official Infantry School and Ft Benning site. A CPT who works in the Combined Arms Tactics Division at the schoolhouse summed it all up nicely; "Why is it when an American soldier survives multiple hits from an enemy's weapon and goes on to take out the machine gun position with a frag grenade, we give him the MOH; but let an enemy soldier have the nerve and bad manners not to fall over dead immediately after one hit from an M4 or M16, we've got a problem with our weapons?"
As for OC, when I first certified with it back in about 93 or 94, they told us it wouldn't be effective against everyone. I've learned pressure point control techniques that would have some people on their knees begging for mercy, are totally ineffective on others.
If you look hard enough, you can find documentation of people continuing to function after receiveing hits from about any firearm you care to name. All lesser means of force depend on pain to gain compliance. Everyone has a different threshold of pain.
I just think it's more productive to talk about how to stay in the fight and win then it is to bemoan the defensive tools used. Instead of "on page such and such of Black Hawk Down, SFC Howe had to shoot the bad guy a couple times before he went down" meaning the M4 and M855 is useless in combat; what's wrong with "we need to educate or soldiers on the grim realities of combat?
Instead of indicting OC spray and making it the culprit in the murder of Deputy Herzog; why aren't we blaming the real culprit, the budgetary decisions that left him out there alone to deal with an EDP?
Boys and girls, I don't think we're learning the right lesson from these things. In fact, we're getting like the antis, we're blaming the tools for bad things that happen.
RANT MODE OFF
Jeff