The usual from the Post

Monkeyleg

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Choose Your Weapons



IT'S BEEN BUT six weeks since a man with a gym bag full of firearms and ammunition gunned down seven co-workers at a Massachusetts software company, all in a matter of minutes. Now a bloody sequel: Another man with a golf bag full of weapons went on a rampage at an engine factory west of Chicago, killing four employees and wounding four others before killing himself. Total elapsed time: again, only minutes, maybe eight to 12. The weapons of choice in Chicago, as in Massachusetts, included an AK-47 assault-style rifle -- designed for deadly efficiency.


Terrorized survivors, returning to the plant yesterday, were told by counselors that there is almost no way to avoid such tragedies. One worker said a counselor told him that "this is something that's almost unpreventable, something happening all over the country now." That's what the AK-47 apologists and others who oppose effective controls on the supplies of firearms in the country like to hear. After all, they argue, violent people have all sorts of deadly weapons at the ready -- knives, clubs and so on.


True, an attacker without a gun can terrorize an office. Only last week, a former teacher walked into an elementary school west of Philadelphia with a machete and attacked the principal. But the principal and two teachers struggled with the man and subdued him. The principal suffered severe cuts to her hands; three other teachers and six kindergartners suffered injuries. But no one died. Would the outcome have been different had this attacker used an AK-47? Would the string of multiple slayings over recent years in U.S. workplaces, schools and churches have been as deadly as they were if handguns and assault-style weapons were not sold in this country? Must Americans accept such quick and deadly violence as "almost unpreventable"?


© 2001 The Washington Post Company




Dick
 
Yawn.... Maybe they'll start outlawing gym bags and golf bags since they can so easily conceal all that firepower.
Would the string of multiple slayings over recent years in U.S. workplaces, schools and churches have been as deadly as they were if handguns and assault-style weapons were not sold in this country?
So he wants all the deranged people to use 12GA shotguns and/or high powered hunting rifes.
And this would cause less? deaths. Yeah right.

Some more info about the weapons from the Chicago Tribune
NAVISTAR GUNMAN GOT PAST CRACKS IN GUN LAW

By Alex Rodriguez and Matt O'Connor, Tribune Staff Writers. Tribune staff writers Oscar Avila, Eric Ferkenhoff, Ted...
February 7, 2001


When a DuPage County judge convicted William D. Baker of criminal sexual assault on May 22, 1998, authorities should have made him relinquish possession of firearms he owned. They didn't.

When a federal judge accepted Baker's guilty plea last November to charges he helped steal engines and engine parts, authorities had a second chance to force him to turn in the guns. Again, Baker kept them.

State (and Federal -2GSP) law prohibits convicted felons from possessing firearms. But as Baker's case illustrates, authorities have yet to devise a mechanism to enforce that law, authorities said.

The 66-year-old former Navistar International Corp. worker reappeared Monday at the Melrose Park plant where he had worked for 39 years and, armed with an assault rifle, shotgun, revolver and hunting rifle, killed four workers and wounded four others before taking his own life.

Melrose Park police said Tuesday that Baker had possessed at least two of those guns--the Remington shotgun and the hunting rifle--since 1993, when he bought them from a Glen Ellyn dealer.

Though he was convicted of felonies in 1998 and November 2000, no attempt was made to force Baker to relinquish ownership of those guns, authorities said.

Investigators with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms were still trying to trace where and when Baker obtained the other two guns he used in his rampage: an SKS assault rifle and a .38-caliber revolver.

continues
So let's keep blaming it on the easy availability of guns, especially those evil assault rifles and handguns.

I repeat, Yawn.......

-Mike

More on this here: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56582
 
4 guns:
armed with an
1)assault rifle, -- SKS assault rifle
2)shotgun, -- Remington shotgun
3)revolver -- .38-caliber revolver
4)hunting rifle --the hunting rifle

so he DID NOT have an AK-47?
 
No AK. An SKS looks like the same thing to a reporter.

I believe I'll pen a short but pithy letter to the Post pointing out that it is foul slander to claim that I would "like to hear" that murder is not preventable. Then I'll point out that "AK47 apologists" have been suggesting ways to make such violence preventable for years, but Illinois stubbornly refuses to pass shall-issue CCW. Maybe follow that with a list of places where tragedies occurred when CCW was NOT allowed vs. places where tragedies occurred when CCW was allowed. I wonder what sort of trend that might show?
 
To correct two HUGE errors...

"This is something that's almost unpreventable, something happening all over the country now..."

1 )This does NOT happen in states with "shall issue" CCW laws.

2) "Shall issue" CCW laws are a tremendous deterrent against this kind of thing, and probably constitute prevention.
 
Let's Review:

A nut shoots up Luby's Cafeteria in Texas--BEFORE Texas reformed its CCW laws. No one was armed to stop him.

Two nuts shoot up Columbine--a school, which means they knew only the guard could carry. They worked the attack in such a way that they were too far from him (according to Ayoob) for his handgun to be effective against their carbine.

A nut shoots up Xerox in Hawaii. Hawaii does not allow concealed carry. No one was armed to stop him.

A nut shoots up an office in Wakefield, Massachusetts. Massachusetts requires a letter of reference from God Almighty in triplicate to get a CCW, so no one was armed to stop him.

A nut shoost up the Navistar plant in Illinois. Illinois doesn't allow concealed carry, so no one is armed to stop him. In fact, the company doesn't even arm it's one guard.

Is there a pattern? I'm sure I missed several incidents.
 
They do happen in states with conceled carry. The day trader was in GA and there was a church in TX after the reform. Here in VA there was an incident in a gay bar in Roanoke, carry is off limits where booze is served here in VA and it looks like it will stay that way for now . ( write your delagates and senators now ) Its just more common where there is no conceled carry. It could and will happen in the 31 free states. In VA I think the # is 157,000 out of about 13 million. There is a very good chance this could happen and no permit holder is around at the time. That being said I carry everywhere that it is legal. It can happen any where. Patrick
 
Well, Oregon is shall issue, and we had Thurston. Another possible commonality was present in the recent white house shooting and the Wakefield shootings (too soon to tell about Navistar) and many, many previous shootings including Columbine and Thurston. Follow my Prozac link for more info. Here's an excerpt from the site regarding recent shootings:

"Some of the cases you may be familiar with are:

Mr. and Mrs. Phil Hartman (Zoloft), Prozac was found in the van of Mark Barton, the Atlanta day trader, who recently killed his family and others in a shooting spree before taking his own life;
Neal Furrow, in LA Jewish school shooting was reported to have been court ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications;
The Salt Lake Family History Library shooting;
School shootings in Littleton, Colorado (Luvox), Atlanta, Georgia, Springfield, Oregon (Prozac), and Caldwell, Idaho;
Another boy in Pocatello, ID in 1998 who in seizure activity from Zoloft had a stand off at the school;
15 year old Chris Shanahan (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman;
The shooting at the lottery in Connecticut last spring by Matthew Beck (Luvox) that left five dead in a murder/suicide;
The New York City Subway bombing by Edward Leary (Prozac);
Nick Mansies (Paxil) in New Jersey who was convicted of killing a little boy who was selling cookies door to door;
In Orange County, CA Dana Sue Gray (Paxil) who co-workers described as a very caring nurse killed several elderly people;
Officer Stephen Christian (Prozac) one of the finest officers on the Dallas Police force, who ran into a police substation shooting at fellow officers and was killed;
13 year old Chris Fetters (Prozac) in Iowa who killed her favorite aunt;
David Rothman (Prozac) killed two co-workers and himself at the Dept. of Agriculture in Ingelwood, CA;
Williams Evans (Zoloft) shot one co-worker at the Ohio Bureau of Employment Services before shooting himself in Columbus, OH;
Winatchee, WA where 43 people were wrongfully imprisoned in a false accusation of sexual abuse "witch hunt" fury started by a child under the influence of Prozac and Paxil;
Christopher Vasquez (Zoloft) killed Michael Morrow in Central Park;
Megan Hogg (Prozac) duct taped the mouths and noses of her three little girls and took a handful of pills; Vera Espinoza (Prozac) in Randolph, VT shot her small son and daughter before shooting herself;
An elderly man (Prozac) in Layton, UT axed his wife and daughter to death;
Margaret Kastanis (Prozac) used a knife and hammer to kill her three children before stabbing herself to death;
An elderly man (Paxil) in Dallas, TX strangled his wife before shooting himself twice in the chest;
Larramie Huntzinger (Zoloft) blacked out and ran his car into three young girls killing two in Salt Lake City, UT;
Mary Hinkelman (Prozac), a nurse in Baroda, MI shot her two small daughters and her sister before shooting herself;
Lisa Fox (Prozac) shot her small son and her dog before shooting herself in Brighton, MI;
Debi Louselle (Zoloft) shot daughter and then herself in Salt Lake City, UT;
A father in Wyoming shot his wife, daughter and baby grand-daughter then himself after only days on Paxil;
A mother (Prozac) in Pleasant Grove, UT killed her 17 year old son with a sledge hammer while he slept before she attempted suicide by drinking Drano;
Larry Butz, a superintendent of schools in Ames, IA shot his wife, son and daughter before shooting himself - many cases pending in court are not mentioned.
This is only a handful of MANY, MANY more cases - there would not be room for anything else if I continued listing the cases."

I've been sending this kind of information to local talk show hosts to get them to use it as a topic. They seem receptive. Point is, they can talk about alternative causes for mass shootings without even letting on about their personal gun views. It gives liberal hosts a chance to take the spotlight off of gun confiscation as a solution.

Besides, I'm convinced these drugs are unsafe based on personal experiences with close friends. They are derivatives of PCP and LSD, you know.
 
IMHO, Longshot is definitely on to something here. It ought to be followed up, but it probably won't be, because the pharmeceutical lobby is powerful and they make billions on feelgood pills.
 
Quothe the Trib:

"Though he was convicted of felonies in 1998 and November 2000, no attempt was made to force Baker to relinquish ownership of those guns, authorities said."

Well...why not..???!!! Enforce the laws!! It`s not rocket science!!!
 
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