The University of Chicago Law School on 2nd Am.

ibfestus

New member
Very interesting article on "individual rights" issue.



_______________________________________________________


"The University of Chicago Law School Faculty Blog"

The Second Amendment Cascade (?)

Search The University of Chicago Law School Faculty Blog
The Second Amendment Cascade (?)


Here is a remarkable development. Just twenty-five years ago, there was a strong consensus, among judges and academics, that the Second Amendment did not create an individual right. No federal court had invalidated a restriction on guns on Second Amendment grounds (ever). As recently as 1992, Chief Justice Warren Burger, a conservative Republican appointee, rejected the individual rights view in public.

In a short period, the consensus has shattered. There is a strong possibility that the Supreme Court will accept a view that seemed implausible in the relatively recent past. Here is the question: What has happened?

Consider four possibilities:

1) Truth has finally prevailed. Perhaps new research has shown that the individual rights view is correct. It is true that a large amount of work has been produced in support of that view. Much of it has been funded by private groups with a stake in the issue -- but hardly all of it.

2) Interest groups, above all the NRA, have spurred the change. Perhaps the new view is a reflection of an aggressive social movement, not unlike the movement to ban segregation and to create a right to same-sex marriage. There can be no doubt that a great deal of time, money, and effort have been expended in an effort, by those with a serious stake, to press the individual rights view on politicians and the federal courts.

3) New judicial appointees have shown new receptivity to arguments that are a) originalist and b) associated with the political right. A key contributor to the shift is undoubtedly the presence, on the federal bench, of a number of Reagan and Bush appointees, who are sympathetic to gun rights in particular, and who also have a jurisprudential interest in originalist arguments.

4) Both politics and law have experienced an informational cascade, produced by savvy "Second Amendment entrepreneurs." Many of those involved in law and politics do not have a lot of private knowledge about the Second Amendment. They must rely on what others think. When others seem to think that the individual rights argument is right, they defer -- at least if they trust those others. On this view, the apparently supportive views of "liberal academics" -- including Sanford Levinson, Akhil Amar, Lawrence Tribe -- have been crucial in legitimating the individual rights position.

I tend to think that all of these explanations provide part of the picture, with the (important) qualification that 1) is probably wrong. (This is not the place to defend the qualification. The original understanding of the text is very complex, as shown by historians Saul Cornell and Jack Rakove among others; and longstanding social practices and many court of appeals have refused to accept the individual rights interpretation. In my view, the individual rights view, at least in its present form, is mostly a product of contemporary concerns and preoccupations.) Even if is right, it is not an adequate explanation of what has happened.

If we put 2), 3), and 4) together, we will see that the individual rights interpretation has been the beneficiary, above all, of a stunningly successful social movement. In the domain of constitutional law, there has been nothing even vaguely like it in the past quarter-century.
 
This is out of Chicago? Shocking.

And still, the most basic idea is more along the lines of something America started with, but that was taken away near the turn of the century. Before that, a revolver in your pocket or on your hip meant that you were not going to be a victim, that you at least had a chance of being in charge of your fate.

People just want to be able to defend themselves!
 
So the 2A is not an individual right because the BoR is concerned purely with individual rights and the term "the people" was used and the mountains of writings of the FF's agree on the matter but because of a political shift over the last couple years...

I could see a law school in Chicago saying that because that leaves them free to pursue an anti 2A stance without admiting they wish to use the COTUS as toilet paper to wipe where needed.
 
IDK about the law school at the university of Chicago, but the Chicago School of Economics at the same university is EXTREMELY famous for being VERY pro free market, and has produced some of the most famous libertarians and pro free market professors and names of all time. I wouldn't be quick to lump them in with anti gun anything without doing further research although it is of course that two colleges (law and economics in this case) have completely different opinions of the same subject within the same university.

If I was rich enough where I could just go to school and no have to get a real job, I would love to go study at the school of economics at Chicago.

Here is the link: http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/
 
Last edited:
Is this akin to noting that the sun really rises in the east, while it sets in the west? Have those supposed brains come to realize this?
 
The fact this quote
the Second Amendment did not create an individual right.
came from a law school faculty member is worrisome. We are supposed to trust these folks to interpret the law when they think the BoR 'creates' rights instead of restricts the government?
 
Reading gunner's opinions on the U of C is like reading Californian's opinions on whether or not we should ban barrel shrouds.

The University of Chicago was home to Milton Friedman, Gary Becker, George Stigler, Friedrich Hayek, Ronald Coase, Richard Posner. The Law School housed the ever-revered John R. Lott. Reagan says, while defending his economic policies, (paraphrase) "some call it supply-side, others Chicago School economics, and others Reaganomics". It also produced, somewhat more contentiously, but certainly arch-conservatively, Robert Bork & John Ashcroft.

The Law School was one of the few schools to begin looking at economics and law (Coase, Posner) jointly (what most fans of firearms will use when speaking on why carry is good (Lott).

For every time one has been outraged when they see the ludicrous assumption that if you live in the South, you hate gays, this has been great payback--the assumption that if you live in Chicago you aren't fighting for your rights, or if you're an academic, you despise firearms.

Next time you criticize someone talking about putting a clip in their 1911, or confuse brass & bullet, realize you may be doing the same thing when you write off academia.

I can, however, see some outrage when it comes to "recognizing rights", but this isn't Harvard--this is an alternate view of law, and attempting to get the legal world to recognize that is an arduous process, and I salute them for it.
 
Don't forget that very liberal scholars such as Larry Tribe out of Harvard, one of the top Constitutional authorities, have also come down from their personal views on gun control to endorse the individual rights view.

Tribe particularly noted the conflict with his personal inclination for expansive gun control clashing unsuccessfully with his research into the Founder's thinking, prior precedent which influenced the phrasing of 2A and its intent...to the point of total conclusion it is an individual right based on the inalienable human right of self defense.

It has nothing to do with guns as guns, and will be as vital when firearms are obsolete as before their broad use and today. It is about human beings and a right to life and freedom in the face of oppression in all its forms.
 
Guys, here's a little secret that most of you may not know. Most judges own guns and enjoy shooting their privately owned firearms. I know judges who shoot skeet, hunt ducks and hunt deer. Think about that idea. How many of those judges will want to do away with their own right to do something that they like doing? NONE of them. The anti-gunners are a noisy minority of losers trying to further an unpopular agenda. The judges all know that the anti-gunners are nut jobs. The judges also know that less than 1% of 1% of all firearms are ever used to commit ANY crimes. This means that gun violence is something that a very small minority of people commit. Trouble is that the press glorifies those that illegally use firearms and then calls for the banning of private firearms later in follow-up articles and those judges know it too. Consider this: years ago a life member of the NRA was shot and killed by a guy who was a member of the ACLU. No press was given to that incident from that perspective, instead it was always reported that President John F. Kennedy, life member of the NRA, was shot and killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, ACLU member. I would be shocked if the SCOTUS were to rule agains the private ownership of firearms. I guess that it could happen BUT I don't see it happening right now.
 
Here's an interesting article that quotes Alan Dershowitz. A very well known and respected constitutional lawyer, Harvard professor, and OJ defender. As well as other liberal and anti-gun professors including Larry Tribe

Analyzing The Second Amendment

Yet, intellectual honesty compels many far more important scholars to accept the standard model of the Amendment as an individual's right despite personal anti-gun feelings. Famed constitutional lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who defended O.J. Simpson and Claus von Bulow, is a former ACLU national board member who admits he "hates" guns and wants the Second Amendment repealed. Yet, says Dershowitz: "Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."
 
Last edited:
Most judges own guns and enjoy shooting their privately owned firearms. I know judges who shoot skeet, hunt ducks and hunt deer.

Ever met a Fudd? Trust me, they will own the most well crafted and engraved trap gun but think your desire to own a handgun or EBR is something completely different.

Judges and logic do not go hand in hand. Sadly plenty of judges look on their postition as one to create social change towards some utopia they envision. They alone have the power to legislate unchecked frmo their benches and more than a few have taken it upone themselves to make decisions for those of us they consider to ignorant to be trusted with rights they disagree with.

I hope the SCOTUS decides properly but nothing surprises me from judges.
 
Musketeer:

Re "...nothing surprises me from judges", notwithstanding the rest of your observation, how about the possibility of the injection of a very large does of COMMON SENSE butressed by contemporary as well as historical thinking, as opposed to the emotional claptrap spewed forth by The anti Gun Lobby.
 
I'm surprised nobody has pointed out the hypocrisy of the faculty blog post.

The author breaks down the whole debate into 4 categories which can be defined as;
1. The truth
2. Special interest groups (i.e. the NRA) propaganda
3. Republican/Conservative judicial appointees
4. Second Amendment devotees who write opinion pieces

In his closing paragraphs, the author entirely dismisses the possibility that the truth is beginning to show through the deceipt of the last 70 years.

Worse yet, the author says "this is not the place to defend the qualification" (the truth) but then expends over 50 words to say that he thinks the turnaround is due mostly to what amounts to be "recent social issues". :barf:

I tend to think that all of these explanations provide part of the picture, with the (important) qualification that 1) is probably wrong. (This is not the place to defend the qualification. The original understanding of the text is very complex, as shown by historians Saul Cornell and Jack Rakove among others; and longstanding social practices and many court of appeals have refused to accept the individual rights interpretation. In my view, the individual rights view, at least in its present form, is mostly a product of contemporary concerns and preoccupations.) Even if is right, it is not an adequate explanation of what has happened.

Then, to bolster his "social dynamics" theory, he lumps the remaining possibilites together to support his dismissal of "the truth" being found. Oh no! It's just another "social movement" like trying to legalize same-sex marriage or removing "God" from any government usage.

If we put 2), 3), and 4) together, we will see that the individual rights interpretation has been the beneficiary, above all, of a stunningly successful social movement. In the domain of constitutional law, there has been nothing even vaguely like it in the past quarter-century.

Sometimes academia has to take the long way around the barn to find the door. :rolleyes: What really frosts me is the disengenious way he treats the research and position papers of the last 30-40 years. In #1 he claims;
It is true that a large amount of work has been produced in support of that view. Much of it has been funded by private groups with a stake in the issue -- but hardly all of it.

He tries to dismiss "much of it" by claiming it was produced by special interest groups but has to admit that not all of it is so produced.

In section #4 he tries to use many of those same documents but claims the really crucial ones are those opinion by "liberal academics" -- as if their opinions are really the only ones that matter.

Many of those involved in law and politics do not have a lot of private knowledge about the Second Amendment. They must rely on what others think. When others seem to think that the individual rights argument is right, they defer -- at least if they trust those others. On this view, the apparently supportive views of "liberal academics" -- including Sanford Levinson, Akhil Amar, Lawrence Tribe -- have been crucial in legitimating the individual rights position.

Thus by implication he calls most of the researchers Second Amendment entrepreneurs (with the not so subtle implication that they seek to profit from their work).

In other words, if we were to find the author of this document, he would claim that the individual rights model is nothing more than a "recent invention" based on social trends, political appointees and a large propaganda campaign to push the individual rights view.

What a bunch of bovine scatology. :barf:

I believe the author is totally blind to anything that occurred in "ancient history" (the time before he was born). He's blind to the first 150 years of history and cannot see that it is the "collective rights" model that was the result of "social events" and a propaganda campaign.

But then I remember that science and truth require reasoning, while professorship merely requires tenure.
 
From original article:

In my view, the individual rights view, at least in its present form, is mostly a product of contemporary concerns and preoccupations.

Yeah, the contemporary concerns and preoccupations come from contemporary infringements on the right to bear arms ;-).

Seems no one needed to think about it too much while people could freely exercise it.

-Jephthai-
 
The 2A does not grant individuals the right to keep and bear arms.

That right is granted by a creator in the founder's writings.

The 2A limits the power of government to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms.

The government is trying to turn the meaning around so they are the "god" that grants rights. That is clearly not the intent of the 2A.
 
Back
Top