The Switzerland Example.

G

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
Talking to some of these Antis is like banging your head against a brick wall. It doesn’t effect the wall and will only serve to give you a headache. I have talked at length to a rabid Anti last week. She was certain that gun bans are in place all over Europe and gun crime is down to the point where it is much safer in Europe than in any place in the USA where guns are as common as TVs on the streets. Those are her words! Of course I have yet to see very many TVs laying about on the streets… let alone a firearm.
This person, while very attractive, and seemingly intelligent dispite long tresses of golden hair… was in fact as ignorant as a sack of rocks. It hurt my brain trying to talk to her in a way she could understand.
To end the argument I advised her to look at Switzerland and see the crime rate there… She said it was very low. I said YES - because there is a MACHINE GUN (she doesn’t know the difference between auto and full auto and I tire of trying to teach her that) in every house!
She threatened to expose my ignorance of the matter and walked away feeling smug.
A couple days later I had a NASTY email from her. She exclaimed with very colorful words was that the only reason that the Swiss was that way was because they are all nazi war criminals and they are all just wrong.
WTF? You can see the challenge I face when talking to her.
The Swiss enjoy a freedom most countries just dream of because of a national attitude they have towards firearms. Guns are not evil - they are in fact tools of liberty. This attitude kept them out of WORLD WARS and other conflicts. This is also why people with serious money open accounts in Swiss banks. Security.
Crime there still happens… but on a much much smaller scale.
The Swiss often hold what they call “Schuetzenfests” or Shooting Festivals. There are people carrying autorifles and pistols all over the place - openly - going to and from Festivals that are celebrating ones shooting skills.
Women, Men together and youths all shooting for fun.
But you wont hear about this on your selected network news. Heavens no! That would ruin many democrat platforms! HCI would be totaled!
When our country was being formed we used the Swiss as an example of a way to maintain our freedom. The Swiss are the reason that we have the second amendment. The right to arms has kept the Swiss free for Centuries - since 1291 in fact. Even Hitler didn’t want to mess with the Swiss. Dispite his insanity he still recognized the fact that the Swiss were too strong to even attempt an invasion.
My point is this. When we talk to these people who are against RKBA we have a PERFECT example of how when we simple change our national attitude - our freedoms, peace and liberty are protected and crime is reduced to levels unheard of since the mid 1800s.
Point out to them that guns are nothing more than tools and the real threat to Americans is this the idiotic need to be Politically Correct. P.C. is the threat to the country - and closed minded ignorant sheep that don’t bother the learn the truth and just believe everything they see on TV. That’s the threat!


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To understand the true nature of a Politician - you have to look at the root words in Politics. Poli = meaning Many, and Tics = meaning blood sucking insects.
 
The Swiss also had another great idea that this country used to follow. Neutrality. The don't go around the world pickin' fights and kickin' sleeping dogs. Our nation used to be neutral for the most part. We reserved the right to police our hemisphere, and help our neighbors, but the rest of the world was invited to leave us alone. Oh- for the good old days! Our citizens now remind me of the teenage boy who thinks that his parent's rules are stupid, and so he disregards them when he thinks he can get away with it. Then the boy screws up, gets thrown in jail, or finds himself screwed in other ways, and after he's almost destroyed his life, he finally realizes how smart his folks were. I really do think that this country will overcome the socialist scourge, but not anytime soon. It'll take a catastrophic event to shake us from our collective ignorance/apathy.

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Find out just what the people will submit to and you've found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows or with both.
The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.
Frederick Douglass, Aug 4 1857
 
Unfortunateley the swiss are taking the road to "more security", as the Austrian socialists like to point out.
 
Believe me George, I know what you mean by hurting your brains with these socialists! I lost about half my brain cells while discussing gun control in France the past few weeks. My conclusion, they are all brainwashed. You can not talk common sense to any of them.

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Son
1911 Addiction
"Rangers Lead the Way!"
 
George, you're too fine a fellow to waste your time on this fool.

Rich will soon post the 'Five Minute Handbook' in TFL's library - please see http://hometown.aol.com/jaspar/myhomepage/writing.html

Some of my favorite advice in there is:
"DON'T MESS WITH TRUE BELIEVERS. In the time you spend trying to convert one hard core antigun person to our side, you could have gone out and motivated and organized 20 people who already think like you do. Go with the flow. It's easier on your nerves, and much more effective. Personally, I have converted several anti-rights true believers, but never again! Lots of NRA members are not registered voters. A lot of gun owners aren't NRA members. Even more folks have no idea of their elected officials' positions on gun issues. Where is your time most effectively spent? Think about this before you spend an hour writing a clever response to a silly message you found somewhere on the internet."

I think the corollary is 'Don't Mess with Fools'. She of golden locks said '... they are all nazi war criminals and they are all just wrong.'? Look what you're dealing with here.

Suggest to her a book often recommended on TFL (which I am just finishing), 'The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy : Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies' by David Kopel. A very excellent work about 'gun control', examining the cultural and historical differences between Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Jamaica, Switzerland and the U.S. Don't worry ... she'll never read it.

It would be waaaaaay too much trouble for her to actually consider the facts.

You know, I tend to think people like this woman do short term damage, but they probably help our cause in the long run. To be frank, I would wager that her behavior is consistent, and people around her have probably concluded that she is no brain surgeon. Her comments, like those to you in her email, simply weaken her credibility with others.

Friend to friend ... take a deep breath and talk to others about this important subject. Or, hike in the woods and talk to the 'trees' ... it will probably be more fruitful, you'll feel better, and it will probably result in the same number of people seeing reality. ;)

Take care. Regards from AZ



[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited May 29, 2000).]
 
Sorry to end the choir-fest but the Swiss example isn't the best one. One should study history a bit.

Switzerland has a wonderfully low crime rate in part because of its demographics and immigration policies.

The Swiss themselves don't even conceive of the Sig assault rifles as home protection. Talk to some of them. They don't have the guns for anticriminal purposes.

The Swiss are now passing antigun laws and restrictions on carry.

The Swiss did cooperate with the Nazis. They acted as bankers, supplied materials and trade, free access for troops to cross their country into Italy, did not supply a refuge for Jews, etc.

Their greatest threat was to blow up the Alpine tunnels and disrupt German logistics.
They had a minimal air force and planned a redoubt strategy which would have been an inconvenience to Germany. If they had not cooperated, the Germans could have conquered them.

The strength of the Swiss argument is that a culture can have the presence of guns without a bloodbath.

It is not that their crime rate is low because of the guns or that they protected them from the Nazis.

Demographics did that and collaboration did the other.

In fact, demographics are powerful in the US.

The middle class and upper class gun crime rate has been low and steady for years. It is the same as that in Canada. If fact, there is a bit of a decline. Lower socio-economic gun crimes increase as correlated with the drug explosion and destruction of the family in th US.

Interestingly, property and assault crimes seem to decrease with institution of shall issue CCW as such laws are deterrents to lower socio-economic class driven crime against their own or higher economic class victims.

Switzerland doesn't have the class driven crimes that we see, so one might argue it is an illusory correlation that the Sigs prevent crime.

The situation is complex and using Switzerland as an example means you have to understand the complexities.

To summarize, Switzerland serves as a data point that gun ownership by responsible folk doesn't lead to crime and blood but that's about it.
 
The answer lies in the Swiss people themselves . Go to a small town and take a walk at night . Stores that have outside displays will almost always leave them out all night . No reason to bring them in since no one will steal anything . If someone wants something and the store is closed they take it and pay for it the next day .A friend of mine used to have lawn ornaments on display in front of his house in South Dakota. If he wasn't home and a person wanted one they would take it and a)come back and pay him later or the next day b) pay Ray across the street 'cause he knows him and will give him the money .Try that in East L.A. .

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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA
 
Paratrooper and Meyer are right.

Switzerland is a nation of law-abiding people who settle their differences through discussion and consensus, not through litigation and violence. It's not a winner-take-all society that leaves bitter and angry people behind as "losers."

The fact that they have those wonderful Sturmgewehr 90s in their homes and don't all kill one another only shows that guns don't cause violence, not that the presence of guns will reduce violence. We Americans are violent people and have a totally different culture than the Swiss. Use them as an example correctly, but don't claim too much for it. It has some relevance to our case, but it doesn't settle every question.

An excellent book in English on how their system works is Jonathan Steinberg, Why Switzerland? For those who can read French or German, Aubert's So funktioniert die Schweiz is a very fine explanation of how their system works.
 
My daughter's boyfriend is Swiss. He has that wonderful gun and shows no interest in it.

Bah! Of course, he does appreciate extra aged Appenzeller. My kid admonishes me to stop talking about the gun. I want it !!
 
Glenn,

(quote)
The middle class and upper class gun crime rate has been low and steady for
years. It is the same as that in Canada. If fact, there is a bit of a decline.
Lower socio-economic gun crimes increase as correlated with the drug
explosion and destruction of the family in the US.
Interestingly, property and assault crimes seem to decrease with institution
of shall issue CCW as such laws are deterrents to lower socio-economic class
driven crime against their own or higher economic class victims.
(unquote)

This is great information.

Does this info come from a variety of sources or a single source?
- If a single source, can I get a copy?
- If from varied sources, how about writing a paper on the subject (with a
thorough bibliography)? Publish it on the internet or otherwise make it
available to me, and I will provide copies to as many people as possible!

I’m involved with some anti-gun folks and I really could use this info in some
coherent, concise, eighth-grade-English format. (The doctoral thesis format won't hold their attention.)
-------

All,

I like the 'Five Minute Handbook' very much, but it is not the Holy Grail.
Different people may support our RKBA in different ways - we need them all.
(quote)
"DON'T MESS WITH TRUE BELIEVERS. In the time you spend
trying to convert one hard core antigun person to our side, you could have
gone out and motivated and organized 20 people who already think like you
do.”
(unquote)

I have had some success replying to (rather than “trying to convert”) some
hardcore antigun people - especially when done in a public forum.

If I can keep my cool, give calm, rational, verifiable (non-arguable) answers,
I find bystanders are not as easily misled by the loudmouthed anti-gunner.
By gently (stress *gently*) addressing the anti-gunner’s arguments, I hope
to:
- reveal the fallacies of the anti-gunner’s argument,
- weaken his ability to convince other folks of his position,
- prove he is dealing out of emotion and prejudice rather than fact (especially if he "blows up"),
- undermine the anti-gunners’ movement,
- cause bystanders to reconsider their position, and
- bring a few into the RKBA fold.

Note TFLers have made some converts (eg from the Rosie boards) so there
are precedents.

Mr. Jaspar (if that is his name) has been a gun rights activist for nearly ten
years and he has some truly great ideas.

I’ve been a gun rights activist for nearly forty years. I’ve learned that the
method which is most effective and efficient for one person may not be the
best method for a different person.

So, let each of us support the RKBA struggle in our own way, making the best
use of our own unique talents. Your way, Jaspar’s way, my way, anybody’s
way that reduces support for gun control and supports our RKBA should be
used.

“... a movement requires many different voices.” -- Collin Powell

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 01, 2000).]
 
Dennis: A good starting point is the two Kleck books - Point Blank and Targeting Guns.

Lott's has some of this also. There's others but I'll have to dig for it.

American Journal of Criminology, IIRC, had a special issue on guns which was pretty good.
I'll look for it.

Kopel's book - Cowboy, Samurai, Mountie -
duh on title - it's elsewhere is a good source.

[This message has been edited by Glenn E. Meyer (edited June 01, 2000).]
 
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