The road to no restrictions

K

KAM_Indianapolis

New member
Well based upon my last thread of "What restrictions can we live with" it sounds like in the end, we would rather not live with any restrictions. So in this vein let me ask another question.

What steps do we need to take, at the local, state and federal level, to lead us to the road of no restrictions?

It has taken years of incremental legislation to get where we are today. What incremental steps do we need to propose to get back to where we ought to be.

Take for instance CCW laws. On a state level all states should pass a "shall issue" type of law. On the federal level a national reciprocal right to carry law should be passed.

What other steps do we need to take. It isn't going to happen over night, so we need to take the initiative and start proposing the steps that will take us toward our goal.



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Peace...
Keith

If the 2nd is antiquated, what will happen to the rest.
"the right to keep and bear arms."
 
There are two bills in the House right now that are getting no attention at all from either side: HR347, the Citizens' Self-Defense Act and HR407, the Second Amendment Restoration Act. 347 recognizes the absolute right to use deadly force in defense of one's life, liberty, and property. 407 provides for national CCW reciprocity.

I asked my Congresscritter, Joel Hefley, to cosponsor these bills. He replied, "We don't need them."

Please, ladies and gents, push your critters to cosponsor these bills, and remind them that their job security depends you.

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"We are going to fight. We are going to be hurt.
But in the end, we will stand."
--Roland Deschain
 
I think the first step we need to take is to recognize that the loss of our right to keep and bear arms is not an isolated phenomenon, which could conceivably be reversed by itself. It's part of a larger trend, of lost liberties, expanding government, and the progressive elimination of constitutional limits on federal power. We have to look at how THAT trend began, and was fueled, not just at the origins of gun control.

I see two parallel problems. First, the Seventeenth amendment; Direct election of Senators. I think the state appointment of Senators was one of the basic checks on the power of the federal government: So long as
federal appointees, and federal laws, had to be approved by appointed representatives of state governments, federal usurpation of power was effectively prevented.

With the direct election of Senators, that check on federal power was destroyed; All steps in the selection of federal appointees, especially judges, were under the control of people who had an interest in expanding the power of the federal government, both absolutely, and relative to the states. What's more, federal laws could then be passed which were hostile to the interests of state governments.

I think we need to fix the Constitution, if we're to restore and sustain federalism for any amount of time. The direct election of Senators is probably irreversable, but I think it might be possible to transfer the Senate's powers visa vi appointments back to some state body, perhaps composed of state Governors.

Naturally, the Senate would NEVER originate such an amendment. What you might be able to get past the Senate, though, would be an amendment allowing states to originate constitutional amendments without holding a constitutional convention; Maybe by simply ratifying identical language. If that couldn't be done, I'd say, go for a Constitutional convention. There's not a lot left of the Constitution to lose, as things stand.

The second issue I see is "public" education. John Locke warned us over 200 years ago about it; To paraphrase, he said that a government which wanted an educated citizenry might go so far as to offer vouchers for private schools, but that if a government insisted on running it's own schools, it was aiming to brainwash people.

People, this fight isn't pro-gun vs. anti-gun, it's people who value liberty vs. people in the government who value power. And letting the government spend 12 years brainwashing everyone's children gives our enemy an unbeatable edge. We have got to take back the schools, or the next generation won't even WANT to be free; They won't even understand the word.
 
I agree with what Brett said, but in the spirit of debate I'll toss out a few incremental changes that would lead us back to a constitutional republic.

1. Stop voting for the Demopublicans. Every time you vote for any of these guys, you send the message that it's ok to take a woofie on the constitution. Show them you disagree, vote independent.

2. Vermont carry, everywhere. I don't need to ask the state's permission to defend myself or my family, or even any other victim of a crime. To do so is stupid, immoral, and unconstitutional. What and when I carry are nobody's business but my own. www.jpfo.org

3. Stop paying "income" taxes. This feeds the beast. The IRS has never been able to find or quote the statute that makes a person liable or responsible to pay the income tax. Also, filing violates your 5th Amendment rights. Stop paying illegal taxes that fund more government. www.freedomabovefortune.com /

4. Find several alternate news sources and determine the truth for yourself. Never trust any one source, weigh and consider various versions and make your own determination of what happened. This is the only way to be informed. www.worldnetdaily.com

5. Use jury nullification when you get the chance. As a juror, it is your duty and right to judge the law as well as the facts, no matter what the judge says. Get informed and nullify bad law. www.fija.org

6. Use civil disobedience to show that you will not be enslaved. If a law is unconstitutional, or immoral, you have no legal or moral duty to obey it, in fact, it IS your duty to disobey it. www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/f01.htm www.fear.org

If we all did just a few of these things, big gubment would have way too much on their hands to do anything more than chase their tail. Look at these links, find more on your own, and most of all GET EDUCATED!

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
Searching for a "different" Republican or a "different" Democrat is similar to
extended rattlesnake research. They are all too similar to make much of a practical
difference. (And they all “bite”!)

Ambassador Keyes, Ron Paul, & Sen Smith are Libertarians in Republican clothing. Therefore, the Republican Party will not, indeed CAN not, support them. These candidates will be permitted to run for the nomination in a great show of "the American Way". None would win the nomination even if Little George dropped out of the running.

The "good guys" need to find a party where they fit politically and can get financial
backing not only from the people but from their own party.

Ross Perot’s Reform Party is of no use to us. They would disarm us as quickly as
the Republocrats to implement their own version of Utopia.

The Confederate and Southern Parties, I predict, are doomed to failure because of
their names, their perceived link (however invalid or valid, I don't know) to racist
groups. It’s fun to talk about the South rising again but it’s an impractical dream.
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The Republicans, Democrats, and Reform Parties all want us to fit the
cookie-cutter they design.

If we elect Bush, that confirms that we support the status quo. Congress will still
have its little "pillow fights" and great shows of "market differentiation". But the
differences are only in the timing and method of establishing total control over
their American "subjects".

The Libertarians will let us fit our own mold to a greater extent than any other
party.

I stand where I always stood! The Democrats and Republicans abandoned me in
their rush to tyranny. Screw 'em.

Force the Republicans and Democrats to recognize we have had enough of their
paternalistic pats on the head, increased taxation, national debt, controls,
regulations, directives, Presidential Executive Orders, and their GD United
Nations!

If you continue to do what you've always done,
You'll continue to get what you've always gotten.

The Libertarians are the only viable American political party that is not selling us down the drain to Socialism - the only party willing to RESTORE our Second
Amendment Rights rather than merely slow the infringements.

Therefore, if you REALLY want to restore the Second Amendment, if you REALLY are sore, angry, and fed-up with being sold down the drain:

Vote your conscience, not your compromise.

Vote Libertarian - for a change.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 22, 1999).]
 
On the subject of National Recip: Do we really want this regulated by the Fed's? Do we want them to have the power to say who can and who can't? Is it more likely that we will have to acheive this state by state rather than at the federal level. Excluding a few states, I would much rather trust this to the state level. AT the state level, it seems that the reps are more in touch with the will of the people. However, once that state level rep goes to DC it POLITICS as usual and ebb anf flow with the tide. The more states we get involved the better chance we have to show the other states that this isn't going to turn them into the wild west. If this were to be passed as a federal level what do you think would happen when a person carrying legaly into another state wigs out (hypothetical) and stsrts a shooting spree. Then the national CCW will be in risk by states that don't allow CCW and would prefer an altogether ban. I, for one, trust my state officials much more than the feds.

Just my .02

David

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NRA Life Member
Sometimes it is eaiser to apologize than ask permission
 
Third parties have a dismal history of failure in the United States. It's primarily because any real policy issues espoused which gain favorable recognition among the body politic are most often co-opted by one or the other of the major parties thereby deflating any momentum for a "third" way. This being the case, IMHO voting for a third party candidate for president will absolutely GUARANTEE Al Gore's election. One will have won the battle, voting one's "conscience," and lost the war. If Gore wins, you can look forward to unfettered moves toward total civilian disarmament.

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Safe shooting - PKAY
 
PKay: Third parties have a dismal record of getting elected, but have an excellent record of getting their programs made law. Practically the entire platform of the Socialist party, for instance, has been put into effect. But using your own logic, why should one of the major parties BOTHER co-opting the issues of a third party nobody votes for? Declare that you will never vote third party, and the major parties can ignore you on any issue they agree on. And gun control is well on it's way to being such an issue!

Moreover, I can only think of one genuine third party in this country which has had more success at the ballot than the Libertarian party: The REPUBLICAN party! (Which displaced the Whigs because neither major party would stand up for abolition.) Not only are we bigger than every other "third" party in the country put together, we're growing at double digit rates, and by 2002 at the latest, expect to equal the major parties in size. Check out this story:
www.lp.org/lpn/9906-Archimedes.html

As for the threat of Al Gore, bring him on! That's just what we need; An end to this gradual erosion of our rights, an enemy who confronts us openly, and whose fanaticism will wake every gun owner from their slumber. Sure, some laws we don't like will get enacted in the first two years of Gore's term in office, especially since he's likely to have control of Congress. Tell me that they WON'T get enacted under the sort of Republicans in Washington now, and I'll laugh; They're going the same place, just a little slower! Al Gore will make Clinton look like an NRA member... And remember what happened after Clinton's first two years in office?

Finally, there's an advantage to supporting Libertarians, at the local and state level, you may not have thought of. Until I got engaged, I was a major donor for the Libertarian party. I've had opportunities to discuss party strategy with the people who run the show. Here's a deal we're going to be offering the NRA, which you might like: In return for NRA support of Libertarian candidates for seats where there is no pro-gun major party candidate, we'll promise to spend every cent that comes in with "NRA" written on the check for pro- RKBA advertisements. And as a political party, the networks are legally required to sell us air time at the lowest available rate, and not censor our message!

Want to see TV advertisements during the heat of next year's campaign, explaining why the right to keep and bear arms is so important, and why gun control is such a bad idea? The NRA either can't, or won't, run such ads. We can, and given the funds, we WILL.
 
Brett - "As for the threat of Al Gore, bring him on! That's just what we need; An end to this gradual erosion of our rights, an enemy who confronts us openly, and whose fanaticism will wake every gun owner from their slumber. Sure, some laws we don't like will get enacted in the first two years of Gore's term in office, especially since he's likely to have control of Congress."

And you think this is a good idea? I sure don't. You're betting on the come that gun owners will waken from their slumber and throw the bast**ds out. I'm not so sure. With only about 4% of them active now in this the worst of all Second Amendmentment crises yet, there will be many who will go along as the Birchers used to say, "fellow travelling" with the Demosociolist statists. I say let's be what we are, the "swing vote" for any and all RKBA candidates of the major parties, but most likely, the Republicans.

One comment I would like to make, however, is that you, sir, are an erudite ambassador of Libertarianism. I salute your faith and commitment even though we may disagree in approach. Your link was of interest to me since it indicated there are ~50 million citizens whose basic political orientation is libertarian. That would be interesting to harness, now wouldn't it!

I have read that fertile ground for the Libertarian Party is Silicon Valley in northern California where many wealthy ecommerce entrepreneurs share their nerdy iconoclasm, espouse individual freedom, and express a healthy mistrust of government. Who knows, maybe the party may emerge as the champion of the Netizenry in the new millenium.

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Safe shooting - PKAY
 
Third parties have a dismal record of getting elected because most of the electorate listens to the news media parrot the lies of the Republicrats and their, "they don't have a chance to win". These are the same news reporters who are so biased against your rights, btw. Oh, and did I mention Jesse Ventura?

I'm with Brett, at least Gore's an enemy that you an recognize, unlike so many Republicans I could name. So the Republicans "slow" the rate at which new restrictions occur. Losing is still losing; voting for the people who work against you is self-defeating.

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
I'd say, go for a Constitutional convention. There's not a lot left of the Constitution to lose, as things stand.


I don't know about this, the thought of a constitutonal convention scares me. Most constitutional scholars say that the moment another constitutional convention is convened, the entire constitution is opened up to revision.

I know the liberals are dumping on the Constution now, but at least it still gives us some protection. If the liberal- Democrats got control of the convention, there's no way to know what could happen, but I'm sure the 2nd Amendment would be the first thing to go.

I guess I still have some glimmer of hope that someday the Supreme Court will accept a 2nd Amendment case, maybe the case now on appeal in TX, and give a ruling favorable to gun rights. I'm probably dreaming again, but I think that is a possibility, although a slim one.

Most of the published legal research on the 2nd by constitutional scholars, even some anti-gun scholars, now espouses the view that it guarantees an individual right. If that view carries over to the S.C. we could see a lot of the present gun control laws thrown out. I know, I know, now I AM dreaming for sure.
 
The road to no restrictions....is paved with the bones of the enemies of liberty.

As pointed out, it's not just gun control, it's the increasing encroachment of the federal juggernaut into the lives of every citizen.
Even the founding fathers were shortsighted in one area-taxes. As long as government has the power to tax, it will have the power to increase its size and effect. It's time for government to evolve to the next level.
Government is a service industry. Like any other SI, it should only charge for services rendered, to those for whom the service was rendered. I've paid umpteen dollars of my money in taxes, & the only thing I've ever received for that is the threat of being jailed if I don't continue to do so.

Vote Libertarian. It seems to me that if all who liked their ideals but refused to vote for them because they consider it a "wasted" vote were to cast a vote for the L, we might actually win. Give me an L pres & congress, and watch the fed shrink and lose power-fast.
Simple? Yes. But aren't the most elegant solutions usually the simplest? Occam's Razor applied to political science.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
The Shottist's Center forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
 
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