I have been thinking recently, and wondered if anyone has ever looked at the number of police to population ratio, today verses the old west. You hear anti's complain about ccw's and how they will make it like the old west, and it got me to wondering. Is it possible there are less police per capita today then back then?
The old west.
- Thread starter Andrewh
- Start date
Danger Dave
New member
IIRC, the homicide rate in the old west was lower than in the new west....
Possibly because almost everyone had some knowledge of how to use a weapon, and quite often had one handy. The lawmen, as is the case today, were in the minority, and usually only arrived after the trouble was over, if they arrived at all (they didn't have radios then).
Possibly because almost everyone had some knowledge of how to use a weapon, and quite often had one handy. The lawmen, as is the case today, were in the minority, and usually only arrived after the trouble was over, if they arrived at all (they didn't have radios then).
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Far more police, per capita, today than "back then". Most of the shootings were contained within a rather small group. Wild-eyed types with guns knew to stay in "their" part of town, and Proper Folks were usually only disturbed by the noise of gunfire, not the results. All in all, it was a self-healing situation.
The wildness, by and large, was fairly short-lived. It generally began a couple of years after the Civil War, and pretty much calmed down in the 1880s. After 1890, it was pretty much isolated and sporadic. The trail-herd era only lasted around a dozen years. The railroads ended it.
Hollywood tends to give a false picture due to the time compression factor in movies. That is, while I was in the Army, I pretty much met every type of character shown in "MASH". However, that was over a four-year period, in quite a few different posts--U.S., Korea, France. Another example might be "Platoon", which could make the credulous believe that service in Vietnam was practically an unending firefight in thick jungle.
FWIW, Art
The wildness, by and large, was fairly short-lived. It generally began a couple of years after the Civil War, and pretty much calmed down in the 1880s. After 1890, it was pretty much isolated and sporadic. The trail-herd era only lasted around a dozen years. The railroads ended it.
Hollywood tends to give a false picture due to the time compression factor in movies. That is, while I was in the Army, I pretty much met every type of character shown in "MASH". However, that was over a four-year period, in quite a few different posts--U.S., Korea, France. Another example might be "Platoon", which could make the credulous believe that service in Vietnam was practically an unending firefight in thick jungle.
FWIW, Art
We know that at age 45 or so, towards the end of a long law enforcement career including six years as Marshall of Dodge City, Kansas, Wyatt Earp was shot at for the FIRST time at the OK Corral in Tombstone.
He had once shot at a fleeing (on horseback) bank robber and winged the guy in the arm, in his earlier days as a cop. Said robber lived to stand trial. That was his sole shooting incident prior to the OK. And he lived to a ripe old age...
Doesn't sound too bad, does it?
Forget the actual ratio of cops to non-cops for a second. 19th century law enforcement didn't have rapid communications, radios, faxes, ballistic evidence, fingerprinting, forensics was crude at best. Take away all of that, give the LAPD nothing but guns and cars and wanted posters, and LA will look like a pizza with the topping ripped off in under a week.
Jim
He had once shot at a fleeing (on horseback) bank robber and winged the guy in the arm, in his earlier days as a cop. Said robber lived to stand trial. That was his sole shooting incident prior to the OK. And he lived to a ripe old age...
Doesn't sound too bad, does it?
Forget the actual ratio of cops to non-cops for a second. 19th century law enforcement didn't have rapid communications, radios, faxes, ballistic evidence, fingerprinting, forensics was crude at best. Take away all of that, give the LAPD nothing but guns and cars and wanted posters, and LA will look like a pizza with the topping ripped off in under a week.
Jim
That goes with the term "on the wrong side of the tracks". **** happened in the bad part of towns and the more they killed each other off the better was the official opinion. Kind of like LA now but they did not police these areas, just kept them out of the civilized part of town. Art hit the fact on the head here. Today this is based on Hollywood movies and not facts or reality. Crime was much lower than now per capita unless you where in NY of SF. But I live in Oregon and my family has been here since the 1840s, just watch a Hollywood version of the west and Oregon is not part of the so called old west. 
As an aside, Hollywood also shows those who lived in the old west usually as terrified sheeple. This is also a total fabrication. These people braved crossing unknown and hostile lands battling other peoples and the elements all the way. Many had to fight for their very existance on a regular, almost daily in some cases, basis. Do you think that a couple of desperados or BGs would actually scare them? I would imagine more BGs were run off or dispatched on a regular basis by the local citizenry than Hollyweird ever imagined. A good example is Bodie. This was, at one time, known to be one of, if not THE, worst boomtown in the west. For most of it's life it had no effective law enforcement. After a while the citizenry formed a vigilance committee and ended the "reign of terror" that afflicted the town. The committee even hung the sherriff as he was part of the problem! These committees were not unknown in the west and usually solved the problem as even then the BGs would look for the easiest pickings.
When and where I grew up was as close to living in the wild west as possible without actually being there. A lot of the ranches I worked on did not have telephones, electic power, etc. What was it like... well we were mostly two busy to start a ruckus. Work started at sunup and ended when it got too dark to see. We would make it into town to visit our local bar (town pop < 500) maybe once a month. Could not stay long as we had to get up the following morning with the chickens to feed all the hungry critters.
This is something that so many people forget, there was a lot less crime back then because people were to busy scratching a living out of the land. Someone would show up at the ranch (rare occasion) and would be greated with a loaded rifle. If the dogs liked them they would have to stop in and have a couple beers and listen to a few hours of stories. Dogs did not like them they were quickly shown the way off the property.
A lot of the problem today is that there are to many people out there with way to much time on their hands. With the welfare system the way it is, people are not concerned with the basics of life.... ie... where their next meal is comming from. So instead of work keeping them occupied, they have time to wander the streets.
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Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
This is something that so many people forget, there was a lot less crime back then because people were to busy scratching a living out of the land. Someone would show up at the ranch (rare occasion) and would be greated with a loaded rifle. If the dogs liked them they would have to stop in and have a couple beers and listen to a few hours of stories. Dogs did not like them they were quickly shown the way off the property.
A lot of the problem today is that there are to many people out there with way to much time on their hands. With the welfare system the way it is, people are not concerned with the basics of life.... ie... where their next meal is comming from. So instead of work keeping them occupied, they have time to wander the streets.
------------------
Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
Jeff Thomas
New member
Take a look at the 'Samaurai, the Mountie and the Cowboy', by David Kopel. He goes into this a little.
His take was the same as Art's comments above - relatively little violence, mainly confined to young, drunken cowboys proving their manhood in saloons. Otherwise, people were well armed and it did not result in more violence.
Regards from Az
His take was the same as Art's comments above - relatively little violence, mainly confined to young, drunken cowboys proving their manhood in saloons. Otherwise, people were well armed and it did not result in more violence.
Regards from Az
A very fine book on the subject, and a good solid academic book despite its somewhat lurid sounding title, is
Roger McGrath, Gunfighters, Highwaymen, and Vigiliantes: Violence on the Frontier, 1984, U. Cal. Press.
McGrath studies two mining towns, one of them mentioned in this thread already, Bodie, California. Apparently almost every adult carried a weapon in these towns, including prostitutes and old women.
McGrath concluded that there was very little petty crime - almost no robbery or assault, since people knew that they would get shot for breaking into a home or attacking someone. There were no rapes reported. There was a tendency for small disputes to become gunfights, and a verbal threat was considered grounds to shoot. Blacks, Chinese, Indians, and Mexicans all carried guns and seem to have been treated pretty much like everyone else.
A very interesting book.
Roger McGrath, Gunfighters, Highwaymen, and Vigiliantes: Violence on the Frontier, 1984, U. Cal. Press.
McGrath studies two mining towns, one of them mentioned in this thread already, Bodie, California. Apparently almost every adult carried a weapon in these towns, including prostitutes and old women.
McGrath concluded that there was very little petty crime - almost no robbery or assault, since people knew that they would get shot for breaking into a home or attacking someone. There were no rapes reported. There was a tendency for small disputes to become gunfights, and a verbal threat was considered grounds to shoot. Blacks, Chinese, Indians, and Mexicans all carried guns and seem to have been treated pretty much like everyone else.
A very interesting book.
El Chimango Pete
New member
Keep in mind also, that 'political correctness' regarding firerams and almost anything you'd care to think of - is very much an urban notion. Violence and its control has been a city problem - world over. Those things that hit the headlines nowdays, violence and law enforcement as we (or our 'media') see it wouldn't even have been an issue at the frontiers. 'Wild' as in 'wilderness' was a valid term among pioneers. 'Wild' as in random and stupid savegery would not have been understood then - it belongs in our present day cities, as indeed it did in the US East and other industrialized conglomerates... FWIW
Peter Knight
PS - Give Kopel a look by all means - good stuff there!
Peter Knight
PS - Give Kopel a look by all means - good stuff there!