The Need for CCW. Is it necessary?

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Incursion

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I've been thinking about getting a concealed license when I turn 21, but my brother and other people think I'm insane. Sometimes I think it wouldn't matter if I had a gun on me or not. If a criminal really wants to rob me at gunpoint, how would I stop him. My brother and his fiancee were recently robbed at gunpoint. He told me that he saw the two suspicious looking men. If he had a concealed handgun, it's not like he could just pull it out and point it at them before one of the BGs pointed his gun at him. Wouldn't that be a crime? By the time the criminal points the gun at you, isn't it too late? I can see how a concealed weapon would be of use in a mass killing spree situation, but how would it be helpful in my brother's situation? Sometimes it seems like guns can escalate a situation that doesn't need to be escalated. The problem is that we'll never know what might have happened had we had a gun or had we not had a gun. My brother and his fiancee could have been killed that night. If my brother had a gun he also could have been killed. The BG could have gotten pissed off that he had a weapon and shot him. How do you train yourself into knowing when to pull the gun out and when not to pull the gun out? Sometimes I think a lot of people that have a concealed license have a false sense of empowerment. I think there should be an extensive training course for people that plan to get a concealed license. Not all gunowners are as responsible as the people that post on this board. You guys have even posted about the annoying people at the gun ranges that make the other owners look bad. I've been reading a lot of anti gun and pro gun rhetoric lately. So far I'm gravitating towards the center, but I feel compelled to learn more about both sides of the debate.
 
Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!
Any time you are out in public you should always be aware of your surroundings and who are what is where (condition yellow) as some would say.You never let your guard down.If some one approaches of questionable character the object is to put as much room between you and them as possible.Look at it this way if they make it to you, then you let your guard down, and then you are at the dissadvantage.If you take notice of them before hand. you can have your hand at the ready in case you need it.
 
There is some truth to what you say, but this isn't a simple topic. Each situation is different. Often times you can spot trouble before it arrives. I've also seen statistics that show that those who defend themselves against attacks with firearms are less likely to be injured than those who put up no resistance at all. I wish I had this cite, I believe that is cited in "More Guns, Less Crime," by Lott.

Furthermore, there are a whole lot of people out there with concealed weapons, and they aren't dropping like flies. Carrying a weapon doesn't mean loss of common sense, at least for the great majority as shown by statistics.

Also, even if it did mean greater risk taking by those that carry, this is a free choice and voluntary risk taken by those who carry so why should it be anybody elses business?
 
Good questions. Many gun "gurus" teach their students tricks to avoid the need for a gun. If a mugger has a gun and wants your money, better to give him a roll of one's than test your skill at the quickdraw. It really all depends on the situation. sometimes return fire only puts you in more jeopardy, and sometimes, when your cornered, its your only way out. There are lots of certified trainers ect. on this board who could better answer your questions.

you seem concerned about "false sense of power"...unfortunately many people get a gun for all the wrong reasons. You should be asking yourself whether you have a REAL need for a gun, and whether that need outweighs the benefit of not having one. Its not simply a question of better to have than have not, because along with the ownership of a gun comes all sorts of responsibilities many take for granted (i.e. are you willing to use lethal force ? are you willing to secure your gun from family members and intruders ? Are you willing to educate others who may live with you about the firearm ? Are you willing to take the time and effort to appropriately learn how to use your firearm and when it is viable ? Are you willing to deal with the consequences of taking someones life and being charged with a crime ...ect.)

If this is too much, I suggest you pick up a martial art and practice the hundred yard dash.
 
Oh, I think I have a good response to your argument I didn't really highlight.

There are hundreds of thousands of people carrying concealed in both Pennsylvannia and Florida. Think about that. They aren't going through extensive training, they aren't engaging in crime, they aren't being killed by criminals at a higher rate than other citizens, and the crime rate is falling in these states.

We don't need to deal in hypotheticals. Such as, people act recklessly when they have ccw. The evidence, a large sample(remember hundreds of thousands!), and statistically significant says otherwise. Again I'll put in a plug for Lott's book. He has done the largest statistical test to date on this topic. The antis haven't been able to rebut his argument.
 
That's funny because I just finished reading what seemed like a damn good rebuttal to Lott's book. Basically it says his entire study is flawed. I've been reading a lot of pro gun facts and anti gun facts. How do I know which are true? This is so frustrating. Part of me believes in the right to own a gun, but another part of me thinks it's the worst invention ever, but then I think to myself, "They already exist, so why not let the good people have them?" MusclesMcGee, what do you mean by a real need for a gun? It seems like everyone on this board has a concealed license for the same reason I want one: self defense in a last resort situation. I understand that it is an enormous responsibility to own a gun. I'm willing to use lethal force if necessary. I'll probably be living alone. I want extensive training, and I think it should be required. I'm not really prepared to take the consequences of taking another's life and being charged with a crime, but who is? The way I see it is: if it comes down to my life or a BG's, I choose mine. I'll deal with the consequences when they come.
 
Could you give me an idea of what you were reading? I haven't yet read a good reply to Lott. His data set was the best ever, essentially the whole nation. His book deals with many of the common attacks on his technique. No professional economist would protest his statistics, but they might suggest that there are other factors that are being left out, that might better explain the results. It is incumbent of any serious critic to eventually redo the stats using the same data set and show where Lott is wrong. Or to explain why the data set is faulty, and rework the tests with the new data.

Even if you don't agree with Lott, there are hundreds of thousands of people with ccw, perhaps millions, across the whole country and they are not being arrested for committing crimes, and they are not being killed at a greater rate than the rest of society.

I think it is a great thing that you want to take training seriously. I highly advise it. But at the same time I think you should realize that we all have limited resources and can't necessarily find the time to shoot weekly much less monthly. Furthermore, states with greater training requirements, ie. Texas, don't seem to have any different results than states with less stringent requirements, Vermont, Virginia.

This has been my constant complaint against those who push stringent training standards. Show me the evidence that it will greatly reduce criminal conduct by ccw holders when the crime rate by them is so miniscule already!
 
Incursion,
In truth it is the other way around. Those who would discurage you from a ccw are insane! To rely totaly on the cops is one dumb-arse thing in this immoral society!

All the pro and anti-gun satistics aside (although our side has the truth), You and you alone are responsable for your body and soul.

If you see suspicious people, by all means trust your gut and get into a defensive position... by this I mean get behind a tree or a building corner or even an engine block...keep your hand on your gun but don't pull it out just yet..to hell with them if they don't like it, don't worry about other people's reaction...so they know your spooked, if they come after you yell at them in a Police like tone to "Freeze!" Likely they'll do that or run.

It can be Very hard and sometimes impossable to tell the bad guy's from your average parolle' or even ally...Just try and keep your distance, your head should be up, eyes scanning the area and LOOK BEHIND from time to time...it pays!

If you really want to give your wallet and hope he's not going to kill the witness... (you- and this happens alot now with Three stikes laws..the crriminal knows he's going to lockdown anyways if he does get caught).

Go do the right thing...

Peace
:cool: IZZY
 
Incursion,

I believe there is a simple approach to evaluate your overall question. It is: Will you allow yourself to be a victim?

If yes, than you may want to reconsider your CCW options. If no, you must recognize that law enforcement -- and I have great respect for LEOs -- simply cannot provide constant and timely protection for any ordinary citizen. Therefore, since the police cannot defend you, you must do it for yourself. This implies the potential requirement for firearms, because so many criminals are armed.

In your brother's scenario, if armed, I would have had my pistol draw but relatively concealed (for example, in my right hand that was hidden beneath my jacket and/or shirt). If the two criminals who robbed you brother turned out to be innocents, no firearm would have been visible and no harm would have transpired. On the other hand, when they accosted your brother, he would have been armed and ready to defend himself -- if compelled to so by the lawbreakers' actions.

Your brother had good instincts -- he sensed the danger -- and he was responsible for his protection and for his fiancée's. If the felons had decided to beat, rape, and/or kill as well as to rob, your loved ones would have been in deep trouble.

It truly is terrible that we have to fear grave harm during routine, law-abiding, daily events. However, that is life in many venues in '00. Either you prepare for life's troubles or you suffer due to non-readiness.
 
RWK, wouldn't the BG still have to point his gun at you first before you could uncover the gun that was in your hand and fire? You would have to be pretty damn fast to aim and fire before the BG could pull the trigger. The BG has an advantage because he already has his gun drawn when he says, "Give me your money!" I don't think I would want to take that chance, but on the other hand you don't know if the BG will kill you anyways. CCW seems like it can get you into a lot of trouble with the law.
 
i agree that no property is worth your life. i have had to use my pistol several times to defend myself or others and let me tell you when you really need it there is nothing else that will do. it is good form to try and gain the tactical advantage. i.e. try and avoid situations that are not defensible. park in well lighted areas, avoid areas that contain blind spots or cover for the predators, travel in groups when possible, avoid "bad" areas, observe the area before entering, like in chess think a few moves ahead. ask yourself what would i do if i was going to rob someone, bad guys are usually not crazed, they like easy prey. if you blunder thru life oblivious to your surroundings you are like a wounded or sick deer and the wolves will surely eat you. it is a good idea to keep your car keys on a seperate ring and keep a money clip seperate from your wallet. in a robbery give the bad guy what he wants if he has the drop on you. give up your money clip, that way you keep your ID ect. give up your car keys if asked, you still have your other keys. this is usually enough to placate most robbers. if you carry your gun in a behind the hip or small of the back posistion, the reach to draw is almost identical to the reach for a wallet. but beware. if it comes down to the time when you feel your life or the life of a friend is on the line, remember the art of distraction of attention. as kids we played a game where we both stood on a balance beam or the top of a garden wall holding each other by the forearm. we would try to balance and at the same time push the other off balance and the wall. the point is to watch and feel your opponent. at the moment thier concentration is distracted you must strike. when the flag goes up do not hesitate. no handgun or knife should ever be drawn in public unless the decision has been made to stop/kill your antagonist. draw your weapon and use all the powers at your command to put an end to the threat. if your attacker has a deadly weapon (and they have better legally) then shoot to put them down as quickly as possible. one to two hits to the chest. if they don't go down, shoot for the pelvis or head. the pelvis girdle is a better target and will put down a even a large man as it is the support for the body. the head is difficult. it is small and the bones are dense and slanted. at close range it may be of advantage to fend off the gun hand of your opponent with one hand and shoot to thier body with the other. above all remember your greatest tactical weapon is your brain. think and survive.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
 
Incursion,

First, I am not an attorney, but I respectfully suggest you are wrong. In addition, the laws that govern this type of situation vary between states; even within the same state, some prosecutors would decline to charge an individual, while others would welcome the opportunity to do so.

With this said, the essential issue is: "Do you have legitimate reason to fear grave bodily harm"? That judgment includes MANY factors such as the ages and physical conditions of the individuals involved, the environment, the applicable criminal histories, and so forth.

In sum, the felons do not necessarily have to draw weapons before you accurately perceive serious potential danger. Obviously, if they do so, any legal difficulties are substantially reduced. However, if the circumstances are such that a reasonable person would fear life-threatening injury, than the possible use of firearms is certainly indicated.
 
As suggested in my last post, I believe that under dire circumstances you could uncover a firearm before the felon either drew or fired. Obviously, this is not desirable. However, brandishing a weapon is unquestionably legal if a reasonable individual (i.e., the jury) concludes that it prevented certain, grave injury or death.
 
I was robbed once years ago at gun point.. Still have a bad night over it every once and a while... I carry now did I run out and buy a gun no. I thought it over... It really was all my fault..I was unaware of my suroundings for just long enough for some one to take advantage of me. I make sure that does not happen again...In your brothers case he did what he could...did I have a chance to shoot the guy that robbed me yes ...he let his guard at least once...but I was not prepared I won't let that happen again either...Carring has done me alot of good I stay out of bars... and am much more aware of my suroundings....There is no one solution to any problem ....a gun is just a tool.... like a flash light a knife... a hat and gloves and a coat....or ajack for my car....It gives me more options to handle this world......and that is agood thing........here in VA crime is down Richmond's murder rate is down... the police say exile and they are right but the conceled carry law has had an effect as well...and the drunk on new years with a bat sure thought better of hitting me with it once he saw the situation..........btw it was only 8pm and I was walking my dog an 85 lbs Lab.......
 
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