The Machine gun ban questions

9mm

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When the ban happen, which was 1986? May something...

Did gun stores sell a lot of full auto guns? where m16's sold full auto? Once the ban happen they just removed all full auto guns from the shelf? what happen to those guns?


Just some questions I thought about. Did the guns go to waste?
 
No.
Not many.
No.
They were already registered as transferrable and were sold at inflated prices.
A friend bought one of the last live legal Thompsons the next year for about twice the 1985 price. But it is worth a lot more now.
No.
 
In 1934, the $200 tax was equivalent to $3200 in today's money.
In 1968, the $200 tax was equivalent to about two weeks wages for the average American. It was still too expensive for those old Vets to take advantage of the amnesty.
By 1984, the $200 tax dropped down to $400 in today's money. The tax cost more than an M11/9.

Ammo was much more expensive back then in real dollars. Mail order sales of handgun ammo were forbidden. All handgun ammo sales were recorded in a book, with who purchased it and how much.

Most CLEOs would not sign off on a machine gun back then. The trust route was made available in 1968 but most people didn't know about it and you would have had to pay a lawyer a decent amount to draw it up back then.

That's why there are only about 182,000 transferable weapons. There are many more dealer samples that are registered, but we can't own them.
 
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That's why there are only about 182,000 transferable weapons. There are many more dealer samples that are registered, but we can't own them.

Thats what I do not get and understand. :confused:

If you are a dealer you can build machine guns and test em but can't sell. Just google sagia 12g full auto.
 
Hello everyone..."If your a dealer, you can build machine guns and test em, but can't sell"....Kind of like the whiskey distillers in the "dry" counties of Kentucky!
 
Thats what I do not get and understand.

If you are a dealer you can build machine guns and test em but can't sell. Just google sagia 12g full auto.

Pretty easy to understand. On May 19, 1986; the registry closed and machine guns became illegal for ordinary citizens. Everything registered before that date was grandfathered. Your tax stamp on an automatic weapon is an affirmative defense against prosecution.

Foreign machine guns were banned to all but dealers on December 1, 1968.
Domestic machine guns and conversions were banned to all but dealers on May 19, 1986.

Dealers may sell post 86 guns to the military or law enforcement agencies.
Unregistered machine guns are worth 10 years hard time in Federal prison.
 
Dealers may sell post 86 guns to the military or law enforcement agencies.


So do dealers need tax stamps or anything? can they just buy auto parts and drop them in?

Say I open my own gun shop, FFL/Gun range etc..... I can build my own machine guns for samples and sell to military or law enforcement?

I always wonder how people got full auto sagias.
 
David Heinlein to the red courtesy phone, please...

As best I can recall;

Guns are added to the NFA registry by individuals on form 1 $200 (except machineguns)
Guns are added to the NFA registry by an 07/02 Special Occupational Taxpayer on form 2
Guns transfer from dealer to dealer on form 3
Guns transfer in state from dealer to individual, individual to individual, or individual to dealer on form 4 $200 or $5 for an Any Other Weapon



There are other forms and I am going to let someone more experienced with them explain them.
 
So do dealers need tax stamps or anything? can they just buy auto parts and drop them in?

Say I open my own gun shop, FFL/Gun range etc..... I can build my own machine guns for samples and sell to military or law enforcement?

I always wonder how people got full auto sagias.

This post makes no sense to me.

Full-auto fire control groups do not drop into semi-automatic guns. Semi-automatic receivers and full-auto receivers are machined differently. It makes no sense for a Type 7 FFL SOT 2 firearms manufacturer to convert anything; even AKs where all you have to do is drill in the right place for the extra pin, make the rail cut in the right place, machine the selector divot in the right place and install the FAFCG. A manufacturer would be building AKs from receiver flats. Why not just build it full rock and roll to start with?

Dealers who are not licensed manufacturers, SOT 3 holders, cannot build machine guns. They cannot convert semi-autos to full-auto. They can transfer grandfathered machine guns. They can transfer post 86 guns. They may only possess post-86 guns if they have a letter from a law enforcement agency authorizing the purchase of a full automatic arm for demonstration purposes to that law enforcement agency. They need a letter for each post-86 full-auto. It's tough to get some of those letters. Police departments can get older military M16s for free from the government. Companies like Glock won't sell samples to dealers anymore. They sell G18s directly to police departments and do their own demos.

Post-86 guns must be destroyed or transferred before a SOT 2 or SOT 3 gives up their license. They cannot possess the post-86 machine guns as an individual. They belong to the business.

Those SAIGA-12 full autos are probably very few and far between. They belong to firearms manufacturing companies.
 
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Did gun stores sell a lot of full auto guns?
Around here they did.

where m16's sold full auto?
Yes, if they were in the registry.

Once the ban happen they just removed all full auto guns from the shelf?
No. The prices of what was available just tripled initially, and then took off from there.

what happen to those guns?
Those that were smart, bought cheap and sold high. :)

Did the guns go to waste?
Nope :)

Paid $800 fro this ($450 for the HK94, $350 for Flemming to convert it, the week prior to the ban too I might add.)

ry%3D400



Only paid $225 for this (Ignore the top. I blew that up with hot Spanish SMG ammo early on :)) ....

ry%3D400


Ammo was much more expensive back then in real dollars.
Ammo was cheap and plentiful. We were literally buying it by the truck load, and 2000 round cases of 9mm were going for around $150 depending on what you were buying, some a little more, some even less with the right deals. .308 was around a $100-150 a case.

Most CLEOs would not sign off on a machine gun back then.
We never had any troubles.

That's why there are only about 182,000 transferable weapons.
At the time of the ban, I believe there were around 250,000 guns in the registry. Once the word snuck out(the NRA was worthless and basically said nothing), they quit making whole guns, and went to making the receivers and the trigger packs, and basically, about doubled the number of guns in the registry. Now, what there is, is what there is, and things now go due to attrition.

Pretty easy to understand. On May 19, 1986; the registry closed and machine guns became illegal for ordinary citizens.
Illegal to "build", not own.

Your tax stamp on an automatic weapon is an affirmative defense against prosecution.
Most of the time. Dont lose that stamp, and hope they didnt lose things on their end.

One big complaint has been the registry is a mess, and full of errors. That alone should stop the sillyness, but we allow it to go on, so why shold they interfere.

Domestic machine guns and conversions were banned to all but dealers on May 19, 1986.
If the gun was transferable in 86, it still is.

Unregistered machine guns are worth 10 years hard time in Federal prison.
True. But if you strip the gun, and toss the "registered" part, usually the receiver, you can still make out quite well with the parts. Just make sure you destroy what needs destroyed, and do it as they prescribe. Still probably best to just get rid of it all together either way.


Full-auto fire control groups do not drop into semi-automatic guns.
Actually, with the HK's they can and do.

Semi-automatic receivers and full-auto receivers are machined differently.
Sometimes, sometimes not. Sometimes, the addition of a couple holes is all thats necessary.

Then theres always DIAS's (drop in auto sears)
 
OK so...

If I am reading this right, if it was transferable in 86 then it's transferable now.

Scenario; My father bought a fully auto gun in 1985 and now wants to gift it to me. As long as I can legally own/buy a gun today then he can transfer his firearm to me.

Is this correct?
BC
 
Yes.

You fill out the paperwork, get fingerprints and photos, as well as the chief LEO's signature, pay the $200 tax, and wait for the ATF to send you the approval and stamp.

Your dad may also want to look into doing a trust, and put you down as one of the trustee's. I dont have first hand knowledge on these, but Im considering doing it myself. That way, your family, or anyone in the trust can have possession of the gun, and some other pluses.

Im sure someone here has gone that route and will probably pop in with better info on them.
 
Ammo was cheap and plentiful. We were literally buying it by the truck load, and 2000 round cases of 9mm were going for around $150 depending on what you were buying, some a little more, some even less with the right deals. .308 was around a $100-150 a case.

I remember ammo prices crashing after the FOPA was passed and not before. Inflation has also caused the dollar to be worth half of what it was in 1985. So adjust for that.
 
A lot of MG prices being what they are nowadays probably had to do with teh internet, as it opened up a whole new way of selling, rather than you know somebosy, or SGN ads. In 2000, M11's were still $800, and MP5's were $4500.
 
I dont remember things being all that different before or after, until the surplus stuff dried up, and Norinco etc quit importing.

I wasnt making "the big bucks" back in the 80's and 90's, but even with a big mortgage payment, a wife, two kids and a couple of big dogs, I was still buying beau coup cases of ammo and shooting them up as fast as I bought them. At that time, it was cheaper to buy surplus by thee case, than it was to just buy the components to reload the same amount.

I make more money now, still have the wife and dogs, no kids at home, and have a smaller mortgage payment, and I havent seen "cheap" ammo in a long time. These days, I reload the 3-500 rounds I shoot a week, and I dont break the squirt guns out like I used to. When I do, its usually four times the work at the presses that week. :)
 
In 2000, M11's were still $800, and MP5's were $4500.
I sold an MP5 in 2006 for $15000, and that was a well used gun that wasnt really "current". At the time, if the gun was more "correct", (three pin, trigger pack vs registered receiver etc), it was bringing $20000+. M11's have been holding at around $3-4000 for quite awhile now. Things seemed to drop back down a little a few years back, and prices last I looked were running around $15-18000 for the higher end MP5's.

I guess like anything else though, its really whatever the market will bear, unless you have something unique.
 
I dont remember things being all that different before or after, until the surplus stuff dried up, and Norinco etc quit importing.

I was referring to commercial ammo, not surplus. That surplus 9mm didn't make it to my neck of the woods back then. It was definitely illegal to sell it mail order before the FOPA.
 
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