I thought this was pretty interesting.
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m16vsak47.htm
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m16vsak47.htm
The IDF's take on the AK-47 vs M16 debate
- Thread starter Te Anau
- Start date
Very true, however.........
Most people in the US who buy ak47 var. do so because they are more than 1/2 the cost. I would love to have an ar-15, but am looking at a ak because I can find a ak for around $300, and an ar for about $700. This price equates to less tax, and money that can be spent on other things. For my needs (plinking, fun) I am considering an ak, because of the $400 savings.
Most people in the US who buy ak47 var. do so because they are more than 1/2 the cost. I would love to have an ar-15, but am looking at a ak because I can find a ak for around $300, and an ar for about $700. This price equates to less tax, and money that can be spent on other things. For my needs (plinking, fun) I am considering an ak, because of the $400 savings.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
A-hem
Can any soldier or marine in a modern army, such as one of our boys in Iraq or Afghanistan, confirm or deny this allegation?
Can any soldier or marine in a modern army, such as one of our boys in Iraq or Afghanistan, confirm or deny this allegation?
Cowled_Wolfe
New member
I'm not in the Army or any armed forces (yet), but in my opinion, it won't matter if you clean your rifle daily. If you clean in the morning, your gun has all day to get sand/mud/strange materials in its critical areas, which will NOT be good in a mid-day firefight... If you clean at the end of the day, you're going to be fighting (or taking cover with a jammed weapon) with all of last night and today's gunk.
With an AK... You can fight with just about any day's gunk, and maybe more.
Of course, I don't know anything... These are all just assumptions.
MeekAndMild
New member
One small question, for those who have been there and done that.
How do you lube an AR in the desert? Seems like any oil at all would attract dust and the dust would eat away at the alloys.
How do you lube an AR in the desert? Seems like any oil at all would attract dust and the dust would eat away at the alloys.
The M16 is reliable "enough." :barf:
Umm, no thank you. I would like it to be a little more than just enough. Even the absurdly pro-AR writer of that article could not bring himself to say that the AR was really reliable. Only that, if you are lucky enough to have just cleaned it before the big party, you might have yourself a decent weapon. :barf:
I would take a modern AK to a M16/M4 any day. I can't be sure that I will be able to do battle in a clean room.
What a crappy choice. Commie designed crap that will actually work versus low-bid committee designed crap that will work as long as you have a pit crew with you. :barf:
Umm, no thank you. I would like it to be a little more than just enough. Even the absurdly pro-AR writer of that article could not bring himself to say that the AR was really reliable. Only that, if you are lucky enough to have just cleaned it before the big party, you might have yourself a decent weapon. :barf:
I would take a modern AK to a M16/M4 any day. I can't be sure that I will be able to do battle in a clean room.
What a crappy choice. Commie designed crap that will actually work versus low-bid committee designed crap that will work as long as you have a pit crew with you. :barf:
orangeamcs
New member
My brother was at the range the other day for a marines for toys drive. He was shooting an m-16 that kept jamming after roughly 500 rounds. He went into his own gun tote and grabbed some Militec-1 for it. The gun stopped jamming and the soldiers were asking him what the hell he put on it. They could not believe it had 3000 rounds through it after that and didnt jam.
As someone who has spent time conducting training exercises in mildly dusty conditions I can confirm that cleaning your rifle once a day (ie during 'morning routine') is not enough. It doesn't take that long for dust and debris to work it's way into a rifle especially if you're crawling around on the ground.
To counter this problem, one has to form a habit of quickly brushing out any dust from critical areas of a weapon whenever the chance arises.
To counter this problem, one has to form a habit of quickly brushing out any dust from critical areas of a weapon whenever the chance arises.
That pretty much sums it up. They had an AK variant, and it didn't cut the mustard. Not accurate enough, not adaptable enough, too damn heavy.
They chose, and seem to be mightly lethal, with the lowly, unreliable, jamming, sand-sucking, crap-where-you-eat M16/M4. It seems, oddly, that hitting what you aim at trumps reliably innacurate in modern battle. The body counts all over the war on terror pretty much prove that, no?
Cowled_Wolfe
New member
When I had the opportunity to fire an M4gery, and AR15, and an AK, I found them all to be roughly as accurate as eachother (250 yds.). With regards to adaptability, I'm curious what you mean. What adaptations can be made to an M16/M4 that can't be made to an AK? Weight-wise, the AK loses out in most variants, however a synthetic stock AK will often come close. In fact, an AK-103 is lighter than an M16A2 simply because it has a synthetic stock instead of all that wood.
That, or better training, better tactics, and support from vehicles as well as aircraft.
Master Blaster
New member
Must of been a hell of an AK, and really crappy ar-15/ M-4 you fired, cause I own several of both and the AR is much more accurate than the AK.
AK lucky if you can keep it it a 15" circle at 100 yards. AR easy to hit a target the size of a 50 cent piece every time.
If I were in battle I hope the enemy has the AK and I have the AR, cause one good hit beats 5 misses any day. It seems the Isrealis agree, and they would know from actual experience.
Quote from the article:
Those who are using the cost factor are simply unfamiliar with the IDF assault rifles history. Short review - up until the mid 1970's the IDF standard issue assault rifle was the FN FAL. At that time most of the Israeli elite units were using the AK47, which was considered to be much better then the FAL.
During the Israeli-Arab Yom Kippur War in 1973 the U.S. made a massive airlift to Israel containing large sums of brand new M16A1 and CAR15. However, shortly after the war the IDF had adopted the IMI Galil as its new standard issue assault rifle so most of the M16 remained in storage.
The Galil wasn't a big success to say the least. Most of the IDF elite units weren't impressed with the new weapon and remained with the AK47, which also had a deniability capability in covert deep insertions operations.
In the late 1970's few SF units tried out the CAR15 and were tremendously impressed. A decade later, by the late 1980's, almost all elite units were already armed with CAR15 which was gradually replacing the IMI Galil SAR and the AK47.
Note that this was years and years before the IDF officially adopted the M16 in the early 1990's. The IDF SF units that adopted the CAR15 didn't had any cost issue at mind. They could have used either the M16 or the Galil. It made no matter budget wise, since both weapons were already available in masses. The decision was purely quality based and no one told the units which weapon to use. More clearly - in some IDF elite units the Galil was simply never used and they always preferred the CAR15 over it.
Following the influence of the SF units, in the early 1990's the IDF had officially adopted the M16 family as its new standard issue assault rifle for all infantry oriented units, including both SF and conventional units. Today, the IMI Galil is only used by the Artillery Corps, Armor Crops, stationary elements in the Anti Aircraft Corps and rear line units.
Lets again review the situation in the early 1990's. The IDF had large sums of Galil variants it procured over the years, and it also had large sums of M16 it received in the 1973 war as well as in U.S. Army surpluses shipments over the years. Both weapons were available in masses and there wasn't any current or near future need to procure either weapon. The IDF also had thousands of AK47 that were captured over the years. So the IDF could use the AK47 free of charge over M16 or Galil.
Eventually, the IDF chose the M16, so again cost wasn't really an issue. Further more, even if there was such a cost factor, then the IDF could have simply supply all rear line troops with the cheaper M16 and issue the more expensive Galil to the front line troops. The fact that the exact opposite was done speaks for itself.
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The AK is dependable, but I like control and on it’s best day an AK sucks for accuracy.
AR-15 and M16 variants are superior in accuracy to be sure but no amount of tweaking has taken all the bugs out yet. They are still a very finicky rifle.
Give me an old FN FAL any day I don’t mind the weight and I do like the 7.62
However the FN FNC IMHO is everything the M-16s should have been.
And don’t leave out the SiG 552 expensive but if you’re in S storm I want one!
HK made a G-41 that was a fantastic weapon but very cost prohibiting.
AR-15 and M16 variants are superior in accuracy to be sure but no amount of tweaking has taken all the bugs out yet. They are still a very finicky rifle.
Give me an old FN FAL any day I don’t mind the weight and I do like the 7.62
However the FN FNC IMHO is everything the M-16s should have been.
And don’t leave out the SiG 552 expensive but if you’re in S storm I want one!
HK made a G-41 that was a fantastic weapon but very cost prohibiting.
There's a guy on this board whose screen name I can't remember ("Greg" something...) who's always launching into rants about folks who've received all their information from the Errornet nattering on about topics they have no real personal experience on. He has a real derogatory term for them, too; hopefully he'll never get hoisted by his own petard.
Personally? My HK's? Gone. AK's? Gone. Daewoo? Gone. FAL? Gone. Beretta AR-70? Gone. M14/M1A's? Gone. Still have an AR as my go-to gun, and in the build process on two more. Thankfully, my rifles can't access the Disinformation Cowpath, so they remain blissfully unaware of how they are supposed to (mal)function. Must be that awesome pit crew I keep on hand...
For all the ranting, opinions and the bleak combat conditions that exist around Tamara's home in TN 
, I think the basic facts of the article are pretty damning:
The Israelis, who have about the most practical military procurement system on earth, really do have a choice of FOUR proven rifle systems, and choose the M-16 anyway. That's a bit silly to argue with.
Either the gun works, or the Israelis have given over to some completely uncharateristic idiocy. Which is more likely?
, I think the basic facts of the article are pretty damning: The Israelis, who have about the most practical military procurement system on earth, really do have a choice of FOUR proven rifle systems, and choose the M-16 anyway. That's a bit silly to argue with.
Either the gun works, or the Israelis have given over to some completely uncharateristic idiocy. Which is more likely?
True, but in fairness you do have to consider the fact that the M16 comes at a much reduced cost due to US aid. Still, I have to agree that the M16 is a far more accurate weapon than an AK. I own several of both M16 and AK47 variants and were the S to HTF, I'd probably grab an M16 or M4 before an AK or RPK.