the "high-velocity" .38 Long Colt.

R

roberg

Moderator
I could not believe my eyes, in 1975, when I saw Jeff Cooper actually say this, in print! It's in his COOPER ON HANDGUNS, I think it's in the chapter about stopping power. The reference is something like " the modern concept of "small bullet, high velocity, was tried and found wanting, in the form of the .38 Long Colt". The reference also quoted some rifle rd, maybe the 6mm Lee? I don't recall it exactly. So now 780 fps is "hi-v" guys. :-) After all, El Jefe has spoken on this subject!
 
At the time the 38 long colt was introduced it was indeed small bullet
hi velocity----compared to what it was replacing. Which was the
45 colt. And yes, the 6mm Lee Navy rifle was the rifle part of that theory.
6mm Lee was a smallbore screamer compared to 45-70.

Times change, and sometimes history repeats itself, although sometimes
not for the same reasons. US replaced the 1911 45 ACP with the 9mm
M9, and replaced 7.62x51 with 5.56x45 almost 100 years after the
38 LC/6mm Lee experiment.
 
At the time the 38 long colt was introduced it was indeed small bullet
hi velocity----compared to what it was replacing. Which was the
45 colt.
Click to expand...
How is that? The .45Colt was originally adopted by the Army in 1872 and ran 900fps. The .38Colt was made available in 1874 and ran at less than 800fps. The .38Colt did not replace the SAA .45 until years later.
 
Quote:
At the time the 38 long colt was introduced it was indeed small bullet
hi velocity----compared to what it was replacing. Which was the
45 colt.

How is that? The .45Colt was originally adopted by the Army in 1872 and ran 900fps. The .38Colt was made available in 1874 and ran at less than 800fps. The .38Colt did not replace the SAA .45 until years later.
Click to expand...


Yup--you are right on this one! My mistake, I didn't realize the old BP
45 load was that fast.

I wonder if Cooper was getting his 38's mixed up and thinking of 38 super?
 
The comments on the mv of the .45 Colt were correct for commercial loads in that caliber. But the Army, after 1875, never issued the .45 Colt. It issued the .45 Army (aka .45 Schofield) which was loaded with 28 grains of black powder and had a mv of only 730 fps.

So the cartridge that preceded the .38 LC in the military was not the .45 Colt, and the cartridge that followed it was not the .45 ACP.

That doesn't make the .38 Long Colt "high velocity". Cooper was "stretching a point" to boost his exaggerated claims about the power of the .45 ACP and the 10mm.

Jim
 
No, they issued the .45Gov't, which was a new cartridge designed to work in both the Colt SAA and S&W revolvers. It was the length of the .45S&W but had the smaller rim of the .45Colt. It was not the same as the .45S&W (Schofield).
 
Hmmm. I guess I am ignorant this week, but what exactly is the difference between .45 Government/.45 Army and .45 S&W/.45 Schofield?

Jim
 
I do not recall a cartridge called the ".45 Army" nor a ".45 Schofield."

Here's a few .45s:

100_65531.jpg


Samwe cartridges, headstamps:

000_32561.jpg


And a few from Frankford Arsenal:

100_52041.jpg


Bob Wright
 
...what exactly is the difference between .45 Government/.45 Army and .45 S&W/.45 Schofield?
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It was in my post.....rim diameter. The .45S&W needed a larger rim to ensure positive ejection in their guns. The .45Colt did not and there was rim interference when loading .45S&W's in Colt SAA's. The .45Gov't combined the length of the S&W with the smaller diameter rim of the Colt so they could have one load for both guns.
 
That cartridge has a lot of names. Probably due to the rather limited civilian production, commercial companies seem to have often just used their ".45 COLT" headstamp bunter, resulting in both .45 Colt and the shorter .45 having the same marking. (And this led to the designation ".45 Long Colt" vs .45 Short Colt?)

The shorter round has been called .45 S&W, .45 Schofield, .45 Gov't, .45 Army, .45 Short Colt, and .45 Colt Gov't.) Headstamps on commercial ammo were ".45 COLT", .45 S&W", and ".45 C GOV'T"

The Army called it none of those; to them it was just the .45 Revolver, Ball, since it was the only .45 revolver cartridge being issued. The Benet primed rounds had no headstamp; later CF rounds had only the Frankford Arsenal and date stamp. Commercial ammo was made in limited quantities for the few S&W Schofields sold on the commercial market by S&W and those sold as surplus later, but the Army issued ONLY ammo made by Frankford.

So now that clears up everything? Sure.

Jim
 
Newfrontier45:The .45S&W needed a larger rim to ensure positive ejection in their guns. The .45Colt did not and there was rim interference when loading .45S&W's in Colt SAA's.
Click to expand...

I think you are confusing the .45 M1909 round which can not be loaded in SAA cylinders. The .45 S&W round is completely compatible with the Colt SAA. In fact, some .45 Colt cartridges actually have larger diameter rims than .45 S&W rounds. Some .45 Colts rounds go as large as .516" dia. and some .45 S&W rounds go as small as .506" dia.

The .45 M1909 round has rims of .536" dia. The Frankford Arsenal .45 M1906 rounds .525"~527" dia.

The .45 M1909 cartridges can be loaded in SAA but only in every other chamber.

Here is a cylinder of mixed .45 Colt and .45 S&W rounds, the cylinder of a New Frontier:

100_65891.jpg


And the same cylinder loaded with .45 M1909 cartridges, notice they do overlap:

100_66091.jpg


Bob Wright
 
The shorter round has been called .45 S&W, .45 Schofield, .45 Gov't, .45 Army, .45 Short Colt, and .45 Colt Gov't.
Click to expand...
The .45S&W and .45Gov't are two distinctly different cartridges, yet you're calling them the same.


I think you are confusing the .45 M1909 round which can not be loaded in SAA cylinders. The .45 S&W round is completely compatible with the Colt SAA.
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Not according to Cartridges of the World and every other reference I've ever seen on the subject. COTW lists the rim diameter of the .45Colt at .512", the S&W at .522" and the Gov't at .506". If not so, then what was the reason for the .45Gov't in the first place??? This was not an always or every time situation but apparently it happened often enough to warrant the loading of a new cartridge that they KNEW would be compatible with both guns.

Speer #14 states that the cartridge drawing shows European dimensions with a .510" case head but that Starline rims run .520". I've never seen a .45Colt case with a larger head than .45S&W.

Yes I know that modern .45S&W is compatible with most .45Colt revolvers. Our lives also do not typically depend on .45S&W working in our Colt revolvers.
 
I hate to keep batting this around, but the two .45 "S&W" rounds I've pictured are the only types loaded by Frankford Arsenal for the US Army. The only round I know of that is the .45 Colt Gov't. is the one I have shown so headstamped.

The copper cased Benet primed and copper cased Boxer primed round. plus some tinned brass rounds are the only .45 rounds issued after 1874~1875 up through 1895 or so.

Here is the copper cased round and a brass cased round, the brass case dated Jan. 1891.

100_52051.jpg


Newfrontier45:Yes I know that modern .45S&W is compatible with most .45Colt revolvers. Our lives also do not typically depend on .45S&W working in our Colt revolvers.
Click to expand...

The specimens I have hardly qualify as "modern" as they date from the early 1900s, nd most have the small copper (blackpowder) primers. And again, we're only talking about the SAA and the Model 1878 double action, as later Colt and S&W revolvers have cylinders of larger diameter.

Can you get photos of the headstamp and type of construction of the .45 Army? I can find no references to it in any of my materials.

Bob Wright
 
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The 38 Long Colt was found wanting in the Moro Rebellion for a variety of reasons. One version says the Moros used drugs that made them impervious to pain, another says they would whip themselves into a religious frenzy, another said they used bamboo armor. Hence the Army specified that its future handguns would be .45 caliber.
 
Most people know that the .38 Long Colt was found to be very lacking in use in the Philippines, and that .45s were reissued to "deal" with the problem.

What most people don't know is that, while better, the .45s weren't exactly the Hand of GAWK!, either, in dealing with the local tribal warriors, who were also known to shrugh off direct hits from the .30-40 Krag.

The most effective weapon, by far, was the Winchester shotgun and the buckshot loads that the Army sent to the Philippines.
 
yep, the 6mm lee hits a LOT harder than the .45

ever did. Jeff was definitely known to "strectch" things. Just look at all the bs over the Scout Rifle and the Bren Ten. Jeff banned aerial shooting, which is almost straight up, neaar IPSC matchs, for pistol ammo, and then gave the ok to shooting trap, at low angles, with 308 milsurp, in Scout Rifles, endangering people to 1.5 miles or more. :-) The guys from the Big Bear Lake days have stories about Jeff that would curl your hair (or make you puke, depending).
 
So, James K, if the .45 ACP didn't replace the .38 Long Colt, in U.S. military service, what did?

Was it the .45 Government since the military reissued a few SAAs to the guys in the Phillipines?
 
"if the .45 ACP didn't replace the .38 Long Colt, in U.S. military service, what did?"

Officially, the aforementioned .45 Government round did, in the M1909 service revolver, although it was never intended for the M1909 to be a long-term replacement as the M1911 was getting very close to formal acceptance.

Virtually all of the M1909s were shipped to the Philippines, leaving the M1892 in .38 Long Colt in service as a secondary standard.

Once sufficient stocks of 1911s were available, both the remaining M1892s (and subsequent variants) and the M1909s were withdrawn from service.

The last heyday for the M1892 was in 1917 and 1918 when, due to a shortage of M1911s and M1917s, the M1892s were reissued as a substitute standard, primarily to officers and troops in the United States.

There's some argument as to whether the M1892 ever officialy served in Europe during the war.
 
Mike,

Thanks. I never knew the U.S. military issued a DA revovler in .45 Colt, that is pretty neat.

The M-1909 is pretty cool, in doing a cursory Google search of it.
 
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