"The gun lobby won't like it."

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Academics, not candidates, exchange fire on guns

By David R. Francis (francisd@csps.com)

Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Gun violence costs Americans $100 billion a year. The more guns the public owns, the more homicides by gun. State laws permitting citizens to carry concealed guns do not deter crime.

These are conclusions of two new studies by academics.

In the presidential campaign, the gun issue has faded.

Vice President Al Gore is not banging away on it. Perhaps that's because some trade unionists and other voters in such key swing states as Minnesota and Michigan are keen on their hunting weapons. Though Mr. Gore promises not to touch their rifles and shotguns, his call for background checks on private sales at gun shows may make these voters nervous.

Nor does Texas Gov. George W. Bush trumpet his opposing views, given the sensitivity of many women to gun violence. He already has the support of the National Rifle Association.

In any case, the campaign silence has not ended a shot-filled battle in the academic world.

Two years ago, John Lott Jr., then at the University of Chicago, came out with a book entitled, "More Guns, Less Crime" (University of Chicago Press). It held that waiting periods before gun buyers could take possession, gun buybacks, and background checks yield virtually no benefits in crime reduction. But "right to carry" laws, including legally concealed handguns, the book maintained, are the most cost-effective method for reducing violent crime, because criminals fear their victims may possess guns.

As one might expect, the Lott study became gospel for the gun lobby and gun enthusiasts.

But last week, the National Bureau of Economic Research published a paper by Mark Duggan, also from the University of Chicago, entitled "More Guns, More Crime." Increases in gun ownership, the study finds, lead to a higher gun-homicide rate, and concealed weapons do nothing to shrink crime.

At Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government, another economist, Philip Cook, talks of the Duggan paper "restoring common sense" to the gun discussion. It's hard to imagine, he adds, that "an armed citizenry" could accomplish the many good things outlined in the Lott book.

Contrariwise, gun violence costs the public far more than previously reckoned, according to a new book he has co-authored, "Gun Violence: The Real Costs" (Oxford University Press).

"Gun violence imposes a hard burden on our standard of living," says Mr. Cook.

The costs are not just those resulting from gunshot injuries and deaths in terms of medical costs and lost productivity. Costs also arise from the fact that citizens move from violence-ridden inner cities to the suburbs. They pay more taxes to pay for the protection of public officials.

Homicides with guns, an effective weapon, cost the justice system more than the criminal-assault cases that usually arise from less-deadly weapons. Costly security measures at airports, schools, and other public buildings try to detect guns.

Altogether, there are an estimated 200 million plus guns in the United States. They are involved in 70 percent of homicides and a substantial share of other violent crimes.

From 1993 to 1998, gun homicides dropped 36 percent while nongun homicides declined only 18 percent. In that same period, the fraction of households with at least one gun fell from more than 42 percent to 35 percent.

About one-third of the gun-homicide decline is explained by the fall in gun ownership, Mr. Duggan reckons. The largest declines occur in areas with the largest reductions in firearms ownership.

To reach this conclusion, Duggan devised a unique method for determining levels and changes in gun ownership at the state and county level. He used subscription data for one of the nation's largest gun magazines, Guns & Ammo. This got around the geographical imprecision that has plagued previous studies of the impact of guns on crime. Duggan's magazine data squared with county gun sales and the death rate from gun accidents, gun-show data, and NRA membership data.

Mr. Lott, now at Yale University Law School, says gun-ownership levels may merely reflect shifts in crime levels. More crime results in more guns for protection.

Duggan refutes this by noting that nongun homicides do not fall when gun ownership declines, though gun homicides do drop.

Steven Levitt, an economist specializing in gun issues, also at the University of Chicago, calls Duggan's report "extremely insightful." The paper has been accepted for publication by the prestigious Journal of Political Economy.

But the gun lobby won't like it.
[/quote]
 
Is this for real? Guns and Ammo subscription rates show how many gun owners there are?

The fallacy of this method are:
1) Everyone's subscription numbers are falling -- the internet means G&A has less of a monopoly on information. It's perfectly possible that people are going elsewhere for their information.

2) It is a non-sequitur to tie a choice of news outlet with ownership of anything. I suppose a drop in Car & Driver subscriptions would mean fewer people own cars?

Absurd.
 
A quick search for NEBR shows, from their site:

"The NBER is a private, nonprofit, nonpartisan research organization dedicated to promoting a greater understanding of how the economy works. Our research is conducted by more than 500 university professors around the country, the leading scholars in their fields."

Oh, great - over 500 professors. And, NEBR is located in Cambridge, Mass. Sounds like it just may be a left-leaning-Democrat think tank.

John
 
I no longer buy Guns & Ammo, BUT I did purchase a half dozen or so new guns this year. So, according to this dim wit's logic, I no longer own guns. My, what a scientific way of reasoning. Sorry Mr. BATF agent, your warrant isn't any good. Didn't you read Professor Duggan's paper? I no longer subscribe to Guns & Ammo, so therefore, I no longer own any guns. And these people are teaching our children......

Oh, and since I no longer subscribe to TV Guide, I guess I no longer own televisions, and I no longer subscribe to PC Computing, so this must not really be a computer I'm posting with, and ......etc., etc.

Freakin Bliss Ninny!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To reach this conclusion, Duggan devised a unique method for determining levels and changes in gun ownership at the state and county level. He used subscription data for one of the nation's largest gun magazines, Guns & Ammo.[/quote]

Well, I'd say it is not only unique, but it may be literally unbelievable. It will be interesting to see how his peers receive and analyze these results. Obviously, we're biased, and we can easily see why crime falls when honest people can defend themselves.

For now, this seems as logical as relying upon probate records from the 18th and 19th centuries in order to determine firearms ownership in early America.

Regards from AZ
 
I've never subscribed to Guns and Ammo. Neither have my brothers, mother, sister, brother in law, or grandfather. And you don't want to know how many weapons we have collectively.

On the same note, I read somewhere that Guns and Ammo has subscribers in Canada, England, Europe and Australia. Wonder how he factored that in?

LawDog
 
Ca ca del toro. I don't subscribe to any gun magazines, and I've bought me a bunch of handguns in the last 30 months. 500+ perfessers, huh? And if you laid them all end-to-end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion. M2
 
Mike: Sure, they'd reach a conclusion. It would just be wrong!

Ditto, never subscribed to a gun magazine in my life, unless you call my NRA membership a "subscription" to the American Rifleman.

This is almost funny, when you think back on how Lott's work was being attacked as garbage before the critics even had a chance to read it.

------------------
Sic semper tyrannis!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Thomas:
Well, I'd say it is not only unique, but it may be literally unbelievable. It will be interesting to see how his peers receive and analyze these results. Obviously, we're biased, and we can easily see why crime falls when honest people can defend themselves.

For now, this seems as logical as relying upon probate records from the 18th and 19th centuries in order to determine firearms ownership in early America.

Regards from AZ
[/quote]

This looks and smells like the same kind of "research" the gun-grabbers have trumpeted before. I expect that when the "researcher" is investigated, we'll find an anti-gun zealot producing "statistics" to order to suit the HCI agenda.

Anyone who wants to be able to refute this clown is advised to read (if you can) the usenet group talk.politics.guns. There are people there who actually have a professional grasp of statistics, and who will tear this jerk a new *******. They've done it before when a "study" backed by gun control foundations, or done by gun-grabbers masquerading as scientists gets published. They'll give you more than enough information to crush anyone who tries to use this study in an argument.
 
After years of assault by self serving academics, what's one more piece of offal on the dung heap of gun control.
Why anyone would think the gun lobby cares about garbage like this is beyond me. The only attention this report will draw is from flies.
moon.gif
 
Let's guess how they came up with the "Gun violence costs Americans $100 billion a year" figure, and then pick that apart.

x people a year are killed or wounded, and the per capita earnings of an average citizen are y, hospitalization costs are z per day for w days, do some Excel sheets, and poof, out comes $100 billion a year.

Now, one fallacy is in using per capita earnings of an average citizen. Let's face it - many of those killed by firearms richly deserved it, were engaged in criminal activities themselves, etc. I don't mean to discount the pain and suffering of those caught up in the crossfire of some gangbangers, for instance, but for the gangbangers themselves - does anyone think that their economic loss to the nation was anything like that of an average citizen?

Also, consider suicides using a firearm, which I'm sure were included in the economic losses caused by guns figure. The assumption is that if guns weren't available, then these suicides and the economic losses associated with them wouldn't have occurred. This is patently absurd. Consider the case of Japan, where firearms are virtually unavailable to everyone, but has several times the suicide rate of the US. Humans are incredibly inventive creatures, and those intent on offing themselves figure out alternate ways to do so in the absence of firearms availability.

I'm sure that if you dug into this study, you could pick it apart like this ad infinitum.

The problem is that the fellow travellers in the RIMM (Reality Impaired Mass Media) choose to trumpet this stuff likes it's the Gospel truth, and the sheeple believe it.
 
So, um, how do you explain increasing rates of gun ownership and declining (to almost 1950s levels) of violent crime?

I guess you use "anti-logic" or something.
 
I wonder why he decided on Guns & Ammo rather than NRA membership? Is it because that NRA membership is up? I wonder how many gun magazines he had to check subscription rates of before he found one to match the conclusion he already wanted? I have always found it easier to work the problem if I already knew the answer.
 
Not that the writers or subscribers of Guns & Ammo are irresponsible, but in its day, it was the magazine to read. Its day has passed and there are better publications. Relying on G&A subscriptions as a data base sounds like a pretty weak way of conducting research.

(Unfortunately, my favorite, The Tactical Rifle has quitely evolved into the Accurate Rifle).
 
Fun With Numbers:

One can find just about any set of numbers to make a case for either side of this issue. For example, take Gallup's survey of percentage of households with at least 1 gun:

guns.gif


I could say that the number of households with at least 1 gun increased from 38% in July, 1996 to 42% in April, 2000, yet overall crime decreased!

Basically you can cut and slice statistics in numerous ways to arrive at the desired result. And when overall numbers of guns (on the increase) don't fit the result one is looking for, look at something else that does fit (like magazine subscriptions). Prof. Lott must be LHAO at this study.



[This message has been edited by GnL (edited October 30, 2000).]
 
I'm sure the subscribers of Guns & Ammo will get a twinge thinking about how easily they can be identified not only by a research scientist but also by a fed agency such as the BATF. Won't this be a nice boost to circulation. If I were Guns & Ammo I'd think about keeping my circulation list confidential even though it would cost me money.

The validity of using special interest magazine lists as a means of gaining a representative sample can't be a new thing. Although I'm not a market researcher, I have more than 25+ years in Marketing and Advertising and I'm not familiar with the concept of using this technique for establising a true representative sample with which to draw conclusions. Sounds like "fuzzy sampling" to me.

What's the cost to society to allow criminals free reign by disarming citizens? Some costs can't be measured in dollars?



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"The more perfect
civilisation is, the less occasion has it for government." Thomas Paine The Rights of Man 1792
 
And to think that John Lott spent all that time researching years of data from every county in the country. His study would have been much easier if he'd just called the local newstand to see how sales of G&A were going.

Junk science.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
In the "gun control" research, the number of gun owners IS relevant research.

Gun control relies on not fu**ing over too many people at once. It is the sheer number of gunowners that holds back these laws, not the second amendment (which govt. says does not exist).

Battler.
 
>>Fun With Numbers:...For example, take Gallup's survey of percentage of households with at least 1 gun:<<

GnL, you are absolutely right. One other thing hit me between the eyes. Looking at the chart in your post, the number of households with at least one gun increased from 38 percent to 44 percent in just 4 months (from July to Nov. 96)? That must have been one heck of a buying spree. That would have meant at least 6 million guns in new households in 4 months! Of course, all of those households must have had second thoughts, because the percentage dropped to 34 percent by Apr. 99. (And shot back up to 42 percent one year later.)
 
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